Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I have no problem with that. At present, the legislation is very much, as I said to Deputy Pringle, a fine and maximum term of imprisonment. That would be very detailed, complicated legislation but when there are offences, it is generally a fine. As Mr. O’Neill suggested in his proposal, you categorise the fines, or a term of imprisonment.

Regarding who it is addressed to, the people who are really suffering here are boys and young men. The incidents of criminality are dominated by guys between the ages of 15 and 25. Something happens to men in that decade. I do not know what it is but it is many things the Senator mentioned. They get very territorial, they want to show off and they believe it is important they exhibit their masculinity and that they are macho. That is who it should be addressed to. The Senator is right in saying it is a tragedy when we look at the people who are killed by knife crime and it is also a tragedy for the guy who goes out with a knife, does not intend to use it, a row happens – inevitably with drink involved – and he ends up using the knife with tragic consequences for the rest of his life. I agree with all the issues the Senator raised. However, as well as that, this is the only tool we really have here. Perhaps the Department of Justice can do other things but when it comes to our primary function, which is enacting legislation, there is not much more we can do to try to say that the Oireachtas regards this as a particularly serious issue other than increasing the penalties for it.

It would be interesting to try to do some research on the seizures by An Garda Síochána and the people who are being convicted of knife crime, but it is unquestionably the case that the numbers are growing. I do not know the reason for it. An increasing population can be one explanation. However, what we do not want to happen is for young guys and boys to think it is necessary for them to carry knives. We have not had that in Ireland. If that seeps in broadly, we will have more terrible incidents – their lives and the lives of victims ruined.

I take on board what the Senator said and I appreciate her giving it consideration. I do not disagree with anything she said in respect of the complexity of the causes of people getting involved in crime, but I also think it is not incompatible to say that as an Oireachtas we are entitled to say, "If you do this, and it is serious, you have got to realise there is a very strong maximum sentence here which could be imposed.2