Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I recall Deputy Cronin's horror at the outcome of the IRG's report when it was published. I met the chair of the independent review group into the allegations that were made. We met the judge and a number of members who were absolutely adamant that it be external to the Defence Forces. This is an external oversight body over the Defence Forces, not necessarily over the Department. That is an important demarkation to draw. Unfortunately, it is with regret but that is the case. It was set up by Deputy Coveney who was Minister for Defence at the time. It took more than a year and drew serious, devastating conclusions. The members were adamant to us that they felt previous attempts at this had failed and their view is that they failed because they were not external and a variety of representative groups were included.

That is the view of the independent review group; it is not my view. They could not articulate the view strongly enough to me that it had to be external. It was that group which recommended that the Secretary General be on it. I have not deviated from the recommendations of the report, and I have implemented them faithfully.

Deputy Berry has very sincere opinions on this matter as well. There seems to be a view that there is somehow almost a competition between the Defence Forces and the Department here. That is not the prism through which I look at this at all. It is not a pecking order between the Secretary General or the Chief of Staff, or between civil servants and members of the Defence Forces representative bodies. That is not the prism through which I look at it. I look at this in the context of the independent review group’s recommendations. I also look at it in terms of how we keep faith with those recommendations and how we give this legislation a decent shot at effecting significant change which will ensure that the kind of allegations that emerged will not emerge again and that the type of conclusions the independent review group reached will not be reached in the future. I am focused on how we can deal with what happened and make reforms and changes that will be impactful.

From a basic knowledge perspective and an understanding of how organisations work, I can see the merit of having a Secretary General on the oversight body. As we discussed earlier, the Garda Commissioner has a reporting right through to the Secretary General of the Department of Justice. That is not the situation in the Department of Defence, insofar as the Chief of Staff is the adviser to the Minister, as we discussed, under the 1954 Act. Is it not like for like entirely with regard to the structures around policing and the Defence Forces. We will deal with that in more comprehensive terms in the legislation that is to come on the CHOD and so on. I favour strong and more simple or clear lines of responsibility and accountability, and, in some respects, empowering the head of the Defence Forces in the context of having the full gamut of responsibilities. I understand what the Deputies are saying. I can see it from their perspective. However, what is clearly imprinted on my mind is the meeting I had. Those present were adamant that it had to be external to the Defence Forces.