Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 14, line 37, to delete “and” where it secondly occurs.

From our perspective, amendment No. 11 is the substantive one. It relates to an issue that was discussed widely, as the Tánaiste will be aware. I refer to the external oversight body. It is a concern that was widely relayed during the pre-legislative scrutiny that the external oversight body has to be the basis of providing all stakeholders with the reassurance that the entire defence community is taken seriously and is operating on the basis that all voices are heard at the same level.

The approach of providing scope for the Secretary General of the Department to attend the external oversight body as an ex officio member has drawn criticism from representative organisations, such as the Women of Honour group and the International Centre for Mediation in Armed Forces, ICMAF, which is based in Geneva. If it is an external body, then the Secretary General should not be on it, or if the Secretary General is to be on it, they should be accompanied by the secretaries general of the representative organisations. The amendment we have brought forward is to the latter effect, that the representative associations be represented through their secretaries general on the same basis as the Secretary General of the Department, in an ex officio manner. To us, that is the fairest solution.

I see Deputy Howlin has an alternative, which is to not have the Secretary General of the Department of Defence. We would consider that to be acceptable also but I do not think we can have it both ways, where we have an external oversight body with the Department represented at the highest level and that not being the case for the representative bodies. We have been speaking quite extensively about the challenges our Defence Forces are facing. We are at fewer than 7,500 members across all three strands of the Defence Forces. It is virtually at crisis levels. Despite all of the positive developments, the situation is not getting any better. More people are leaving every year than are joining. That is a fact in terms of where our Defence Forces are at present.

We are not reaching the required level of investment envisaged under the level of ambition of the Commission on the Defence Forces. There is a scenario where we do not have the ability to adequately monitor our skies and seas. We have a situation where we have withdrawn from what I consider to be one of the most important UN peacekeeping missions on the planet today, in the Golan Heights. This is all because of the capacity of our Defence Forces.

We need to get these things, including the external oversight body, right. Therefore, I urge the Minister to accept these amendments. It was probably the biggest single issue that took up the most time during the pre-legislative scrutiny and with all our engagements with representative organisations. I fear that moving along on this basis will undo the goodwill, potential and capacity that we have had since the publication of the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces when there was a sense that things might change and that there would be a new relationship between the ordinary rank and file members and the commissioned officers, with the Department and Defence Forces management. This was the opportunity to get all of these things right.

Amendment No. 11 allows the representative organisations to be included. If the Minister does not accept this amendment, we will support Deputy Howlin's amendment which is that the Secretary General of the Department of Defence should not be represented on that body.