Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I am trying to tease out what page everybody is on. People are generally saying they agree there should be some code of conduct, but then we are querying it and saying perhaps there should not be. I was just taken a bit aback by the casual references to the public service and the Civil Service. It is one of the great strengths and we would lose it at our peril in terms of the conduct, formulation and development of policy. The same principles apply to our Defence Forces.

In a world where there are hybrid attacks and all sorts of infiltration going on, and all sorts of forces out there to undermine democracy, we do need to be careful and to have firewalls around our democracy. While we do not want in any way to suppress people's basic rights, we must be somewhat careful and have ground rules that apply to the Defence Forces and parameters set in respect of behaviour. That needs to be said as well and put on the record.

The Defence Act 1954 always contained restrictions on the involvement of members in political activities. This is not new and we should not give the impression that it is new. That is clearly reflected in the oath taken by all members of the Defence Forces when they join.

The Defence (Amendment) Act 1990, which provided for the establishment of the military representative associations, which was an advance for its time, clearly sets out the purpose of an association, which in general terms is to represent their members on matters concerning remuneration, terms and conditions. The strong military advice we have received is that provisions along the lines set out in both sections 11 and 23 are appropriate and necessary. It should be noted that similar restrictions already operate across the wider public service. There is a code and there have been numerous circulars to that effect, as the Deputy knows, as a former Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.

We dealt with the text of section 11, which clarifies that it will operate without prejudice to the rights of individual Defence Force members to engage with or be represented by their representative associations. We have made that clear in the text.

Section 23 includes a similar clarification relating to the operation of the representative associations. Having reflected on the matter, having considered the views of stakeholders, and having regard to the military advice on the matter, I am generally of the view that the provisions are necessary and proportionate.

I am prepared to look at the views on the inclusion of "Government policy" and to come back on Report Stage with an amendment. I take on board what people have said on the inclusion of "a political matter". The issue with the defence representative bodies is that of course they will continue their representative function of behalf of the interests of their members, but it has never been the case up to now that they should have a broad-brush position, as it were, on every single issue in the country. That is the distinction we are trying to draw.