Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome and thank those present for coming in for an extended session. I have just a few questions because a lot have been answered. Clearly, this has now developed as international best practice. We are looking to apply it here, particularly having run a pilot project in Galway for four years. I would like to understand something about the Galway Barnahus pilot, which is now going to be mainstreamed. Was that operating in parallel with the old system for cases, where child sexual abuse may have been reported and where people may have gone to a Garda station, or have all serious cases for the last four years effectively been funnelled through the Galway system? If it is the latter, do we have any data in relation to increased rates of prosecution, which clearly is one of the expected benefits of this system? Obviously, the other benefits include treating children with a lot more care and appropriate support, treatment and therapy and so on. I presume there is some data to understand this.

I have a second question relating to the model. Following all of the presentations, the only real concern I have regarding the model is that the implementation of it is a challenge, as it always is when you have multiple different departments and agencies trying to work together. That creates challenges in Ireland. We know that the agencies represented here are trying to address that through an interdepartmental group and a steering committee. It is clear from what we have heard today that there is a lot of co-operation. I am surprised to hear that designed into this system is effectively a form of co-location whereby children who may have been abused sexually are telling their stories in an appropriate environment of care and therapy and support while adults could be in the room next door. It is a strange conclusion to draw that it is appropriate to have children and adults in the same building, given that we are trying to avoid the retraumatisation of children. We are trying to ensure that they have to describe what happened to them just once, or the fewest possible number of times, and that they and their families get the supports they need medically and from a therapeutic perspective. I would like an explanation of that. I understand that from the perspective of providing services, there is duplication and crossover in terms of social workers, doctors, psychologists and other professionals for someone in their 20s versus someone in their early teens. If one is trying to create a child-friendly environment, potentially having adult trauma in the room next door or in the same building seems to be a strange mix. I may be misreading that, but I would like to get an explanation of it.

I would like to comment on the practical side of making this happen. I suspect that what is coming to the Government is a memo for information, in effect. I suspect this has already been decided upon and rightly so, given all the work that has been done to date and the international best practice that is clearly there. What is the actual ask in terms of budget to make this really work? The only figure I see in the presentations to date is €1.2 million. The Garda will pick up the tab for its section and I presume the HSE will pick up the tab for some of its section. There is a capital cost required in terms of turning a virtual unit into a real unit in Cork and to do the same in Dublin. My fear is that we will have the right design in theory, but when we actually try to put the system in place, we will find we do not have the staffing complement that is needed, the budget that is needed and the clarity that is needed in terms of finance to be able to make this happen within the timelines we are all hoping to achieve. I agree with Deputy Costello's point that it is a long way from Donegal to Galway, from Wexford to Cork, or from Monaghan or Cavan to Dublin, when a child who may be traumatised is being brought to one of these facilities. If we are trying to implement what is now accepted in an increasing number of countries as best practice, the budget is not going to differ enormously depending on whether we have six centres or three. The budget will be slightly more if we have six, but in the bigger scheme of things, this country unfortunately has a lot of evidence and reports over the last 20 years of sexual abuse across Irish society, which is still there. If we are trying to get the response to this right in terms of supporting children and families, increasing the number of prosecutions, encouraging people to come forward and ensuring the Garda is linking in with our health and therapy systems in the way it should, I would not have thought that the first concern here would be the budget, especially given the scale of spend across the three Departments we are working with here, which have a combined budget of a considerable amount of money.

My core questions refer to co-location of adults and children, which is a concern that I would like addressed, what we are talking about when we discuss budget and who is paying what. We should have the facts. Maybe they need to be outlined to the Government before they are discussed at committee level; if so, fair enough. If those numbers are available, I would be interested in them. I have also asked for the available data for the last four years. It is impressive that we are moving at such a pace that we are trying to open facilities in Cork and in Dublin by the end of the year. This is a concept that we have been committing to and getting our heads around for the past five years. Given the importance of this issue, I would like to see the data linked to Galway in terms of the measurable improvement that this new model is delivering for children, for example relating to prosecutions or to the care of children. In other words, what have we learned from the improvement in the model that we are now looking to back in terms of budget, staff and so on? There are other issues which Senator Clonan has touched on. We all have experience of the pressure that is faced by all the Departments and agencies with which the witnesses work.

I refer to the pressures experienced by CAMHS in Cork or in terms of Garda numbers and Garda resources or in respect of therapies and skills and recruitment challenges not actually linked to money or embargoes but in respect of the challenge to get the skills that are needed. I spent quite a lot of time with HSE south yesterday in relation to disability services and the challenge of recruitment for special schools, for example, in terms of some of the therapies we are talking about delivering here. It is really important that we understand the difference between what this should look like in theory and the practical challenges there will be in implementing it on the ground. I hope it will be less about budgets and more about co-ordination, partnership and getting the people and skills that are needed to staff these units.

I thank the witness.