Dr. Kenneth McDonagh:

Senator Craughwell's questions about the defence forces, an intelligence service and research all revolve around one particular issue. That is the absence of a national conversation on defence and the absence of a national security culture. We have been blessed for 80 years that we did not have to think about defending ourselves other than the crisis in Northern Ireland. The State was totally consumed with looking at the on-island issues. We were blessed for 80 years. For 800 years we were cursed by our geography. As I say to my international students, who complain about Irish neutrality and free-riding, we had it bad for 800 years, and we are entitled to the 80 years we have had.

My point is the 80 years is coming to an end, in that these issues are now really important and will be striking at us. As we have not had to have these conversations for the best reasons in the world, it is tough for us to gear up and to begin to think about it. It is basic stuff. There is national security clearance, for example. We still have two Governmental Departments urinating into the wind in terms of whose responsibility it is going to be and who is going to pay for it.

We have real live issues such as foreign nationals working in State agencies who do not have security clearance. We have Irish academics who cannot serve on various expert committees because there is no system of national security clearance. We do not have a national security strategy. We do not have an integrated concept of defence. There is so much missing but it all comes down to that one point - we do not take defence seriously.

I do not want to get into a row about whether or not we should have a defence Minister, but that is simply emblematic of a much bigger conversation that still needs to be had. It will be a shame if we are forced to have that conversation because other people in Europe are having it and suddenly we have to make up our minds at the last minute. It would be so much better if we decided what our defence strategy was and how it was to be executed and took the political choices with the costs and benefits that arise from those choices.