Mr. Bertie Ahern:

I agree with what the Senator said about our Polish friends and those from other countries. On the first question, we need the EU to continue to adapt and change and react in creative ways to circumstances in which we find ourselves. I do not think there is ever a status quo where we are just fixed and not moving forward. The Union has to keep on doing that in areas where, clearly, local governments feel they do not have a role and have to evolve that. There are some good models and there is some good research. The French are very good at doing that and theirs is a far bigger country than ours. They have their old canton system, which was the Swiss system at one time, where people can evolve and develop in local government. I am not sure that is a big job for the European Union. I think it should be encouraged. The European Union has always been good. It has been very good in the Border regions in helping resource cross-Border communities through the PEACE initiatives and other things, which, by and large, work well. If it comes to local government, however, that is our own job.

On Northern Ireland and the present conflict, it is unfortunate that we have had ongoing tensions since Brexit. I say this every chance I ever get, and Deputy Ó Murchú said it already, because it is a sad thing and one of the reasons I think the problems are arising all the time. If we go back 20 years ago, there were working groups every day, not just on the European Union but in every area, including agriculture, fisheries, the environment and even some justice issues. Irish officials were going over to Brussels or London or maybe somewhere else and there was interaction between the British system and our system every day. I looked back at a diary note approximately one year ago for an event I was attending in a university.

Back in my time, in 2002 or 2003, there was one week in which there were 21 meetings that involved Irish and British officials interacting, arguing, agreeing, disagreeing and whatever. Deputy Howlin would know this from his time as Minister. That huge level of interaction is gone in its entirety. There is nobody meeting. People are not having actual meetings or meeting for coffee or in bars. All of that was hugely helpful. The lack of engagement is a huge problem. It is leading to all these ongoing difficulties that arise every day, whereby issues are jumping up because nobody has them on an agenda, they have not been put down under any other business and they have not been talked about in the coffee bar before the meeting.

Looking to be positive, the only way around this problem is to use the mechanisms of the Good Friday Agreement to have more meetings, including North-South meetings and east-west meetings. There is no need to set up a new structure. The structure is already there within the Good Friday Agreement. It is great that there was a meeting of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference last week. In all these areas, the only way we will get back to where we were before Brexit is to use those structures. We should not set up another talking shop. We just need to use the structures that are there, whereby people meet, engage and try to solve issues. If that happens, I think we will get over these difficulties.

To answer the Senator's question directly, the one thing I would do if I were still where I was is try to get back that co-operation. At the moment, people are sending emails to each other and those emails are getting frostier every day. There are no telephone calls and no direct contact. I have talked to the most senior people around the place. After I leave this meeting, I have a meeting with the House of Commons Northern Ireland Affairs Committee I will say exactly the same to the members of that committee as I have said at this meeting. They will be ducking again because they know Brexit caused all of this. It has undermined the good relationship between us and our near neighbours. Until we correct that, and I have said how I think we can correct it, things are going to get worse, not better.