Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Cuirim fáilte roimh an iar-Thaoiseach. I will try to shoot through these questions as fast as possible because I have been told to do so. Mr. Ahern spoke about the EU in the sense of it being the most successful peace process in the world. I suppose the idea was that if you trade together and you co-operate, other issues do not occur. Some of that has probably been thrown out the window in the past while. Mr. Ahern spoke about the fan mail he got 20 years ago but if he was in the age of TikTok, there could be a very different set of circumstances. It is that idea of whether that would actually happen today.

It creates issues even if people, countries and significant proportions of the populations in the countries are happy enough to go in a particular direction in relation to accession. All it takes is a sizeable minority that is not happy with it. It is easy to be noisy these days. How would Mr. Ahern see that?

It is the idea of selling the positives. If you tried to sell the European Union after the financial crash - we know all the issues there were domestically - people on the street would have seen the EU as not having been prepared or willing and to have been wrong. There has probably been an element of acceptance of that. During Brexit, however, everyone was shocked at the solidarity that was shown to Ireland and the importance of the Single Market was shown. We also have to deal with the issue. Migration, even from within the European Union, can be an issue for people so we need to do things as sensibly and in as well organised a way as possible. We have always had issues with poverty and dealing with it. In some cases, certain people come here who are from hard to reach places. That is the easiest way to say it. Across Europe, we have to deal with those circumstances. That is about how to alleviate poverty, integrate people and involve them.

Mr. Ahern said domestic governments need to bring people along. Domestically an across the European Union, there has sometimes been a failure to deal with the issues that have an impact on people such as health and housing. That leaves room for people who are negative actors. I do not like to use one of the terms that is out there as it sometimes gives people a bit more credibility than they deserve. I sat on the Conference on the Future of Europe. I have said this before. I found it to be the middle class on tour to some degree, myself included. From dealing with working class communities at the moment, Mr. Ahern will know the huge issues there are, including drug taking, drug crime, intimidation and drug addiction. Those issues were barely spoken about in that entire conference where a million and one other issues were dealt with. Drugs were not dealt with, however, and we know they are one of the major things that impacts on those in the still very much disadvantaged communities.

Mr. Ahern also spoke about geopolitics and destabilisation and about what I will call the nouveau colonialism of China and Russia. We also have to say that the western world has made a fair mess of things in places such as Syria and Libya. We have seen certain moves, possibly since the Russian invasion of Ukraine. People have spoken about a fair amount of agreement across the European Union, but then we had the genocidal actions of the Israeli Government with the support of the Americans, although that has changed due to international pressure which is good to see. We have also seen that certain European countries have not made the moves we would like to see them make. It has probably put back any thoughts of co-operation in security and defence, which Sinn Féin is against anyway. It shows the importance of Ireland having an independent foreign policy. Whatever way Europe is going, it has shot itself in the foot. The Palestinians have paid for a lot of that.

I agree with Deputy Howlin. Any time people have been before the committee from North Macedonia or any of the applicant countries in the western Balkans and beyond, they have always said there are other players in the game. As much as they need to meet the rule of law and Copenhagen criteria, they need to be met somewhere. Unfortunately, the western Balkans probably sat in a place where there was talk of accession, but it was only talk and the French, Germans and whoever else were not really interested. We might be in a different place following the invasion of Ukraine, but it will be more difficult to get across.

Finally, Mr. Ahern may be pleased to know, I will ask about Mr. Ahern's history with the peace process and the role the European Union played. He was dealing with a scenario where all the players and stakeholders were engaged and interested. That is not necessarily the case in some of the trouble spots across the world. It may be at some point but that is the part we would like to see the European Union play internationally. Looking at tackling migration in real terms, with Africa and the Middle East as destabilised as they are the situation will not change unless there is an element of benevolent play by a big player. I understand it is not easy.

People would have said with respect to scrutinising legislation, at some level - I do not like to give the Brits credit for anything - Britain sometimes played its part in that and it benefited us. I imagine we still have to make up for that deficit. As Mr. Ahern said, Brexit has created a huge number of anomalies in our relationship, which probably means we will need bespoke solutions from the European Union almost forever or until we get to the final place where there is no Border in Ireland.

That is a sufficient number of questions, if Mr. Ahern is happy to answer them.