Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I will tell Mr. Gleeson why the Department is not getting enough applicants in. From 2018, 2019 or 2020, farmers were waiting and waiting and they went into GLAS and other schemes because they could see money coming and did not have to wait for the postman to come with something. I understand that some of that was due to challenges and so on. Mr. Gleeson spoke about a review. I did a review of the habitats directive and I would have been as well off if I had gone home counting cattle, although maybe the Department would get a better result from a review. I did a review that dealt with all of the different countries in Europe and nothing came of it. The fact is that until they change the environmental rules, farmers will not be planting. Mr. Gleeson should get that into his head.

It is for the simple reason that the 30 cm rule is going to get rid of a heap of land. People will then go to a higher quality of land that a tillage person or a dairy person would also be looking for because of the derogation. Mr. Gleeson is over all of the Department and he knows that is what a derogation farmer is looking for. As the price of bullocks has gone up, those people will need a bit more land. The tillage person is looking for it. There is huge pressure on land. Anyone who thinks the Department is going to increase those figures without dropping some of the environmental measures is wrong.

Is democracy gone? Would it be different if there was a different Europe after the next election? I saw that this year they were able to change parts of the CAP because farmers started protesting in different countries. I think they should have reduced the paperwork a lot more for farmers along the line.

I am being honest here. When you talk to farmers on the ground, given what went on over the last number of years in the Department, they have no faith in it. Mr. Gleeson talks about educating them. Farmers know about the trees and about the acre or the hectare. I will give an example. In most of the west of Ireland where someone would plant a lock of trees, there would be a bit of peaty stuff, so it is not going to happen because people would have to go through all of the rigours again. The Department needs to switch out of the hopeful zone. We are four years coming in here and we are hearing the same story about forestry. I understand fully that the Department cannot plant the trees and it can only give licences, but forestry is such a poisoned thing at the moment, given what went on with the people.

I used a chainsaw in Glenhest in County Mayo and I cut the finest timber. A long time ago, when the first timber machines came out, you had to brash it up for the 6 ft. and the finest of timber came out of there. Today, you cannot plant a tree on it because of the environmental regulations. What we have done is that we have dropped down the areas that we can plant on. The Chairman has brought this up several times, as have other members. We have left it such that people are competing for ground that others want. There is not a hope in hell. I would like to Mr Gleeson to comment on that. That is coming from the ground. That is being honest. I am not saying it is Mr. Gleeson's fault. I am just saying it is a major problem coming down the line.

With regard to carbon credits, the farmer owns the forestry. Does the farmer own the carbon credits that will be on that or who is going to take the benefit of them?