Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Yes. I can kind of think we might have been better off if Tony Blair had been a little bit more cautious with regard to the advice he received on the Middle East, but anyway. I take the point made by Dr. Griffin. In general terms it is true and there is a caution here that needs to be considered. It raises another few questions.

I have another comment on a point made earlier. I am not sure if it was Dr. Dukelow or Dr. Whelan. To be fair, I think the Department of Social Welfare may be a little bit more advanced than other Departments on means testing in some respects, especially regarding child maintenance. The means testing that happens around the area of housing, however, can be crazy. I flag that one of the maddest things is the snakes and ladders effect. People could be on the housing list for six years and then go over the income threshold for one year, and then have to start all over again. Applications cannot be put on ice, even if people have ten years of credit. This time is like money in the bank for people, but they are back to starting at nought if they go over the income threshold for one or two years. This situation is profoundly wrong.

I will steer my questions back to Dr. Griffin in relation to the means-testing context. This is very interesting. I will ask one question, although the answer might be in the reading list or wherever. Where does Dr. Griffin stand on a universal basic income? I know we have the payment for artists, but this is not really going to provide much of an indication about how it might work in wider society.

I am not an advocate of it but I am open-minded. One criticism made of it is that arguably, it could facilitate employers in creating a low-wage economy, in that they are aware that there is a bedrock and there is only so much they have to provide to their employees, in the knowledge that the income is at a certain level of adequacy. I might return to Dr. Boland. He might have a comment if it was he who raised the point of this potentially being an instrument of social policy. Does he have a view on the point regarding carers? In the context of the care crisis that exists in other jurisdictions - and may exist here but we are not discussing it - is there an extent to which social welfare policy should be an instrument to social policy and trying to get ahead of that?