Dr. Tom Boland:

My answers will have a remarkably small degree of reference to sheep, expect that perhaps we were like sheep following the global trend towards this system of forcing people to get work. I agree with the Deputy that the number of people who cannot or will not work is so vanishingly small that the whole system of chasing people into work is largely unnecessary. All of us have found in our research that it also has negative effects on people. It is not just psychologically negative but it forces them to quickly jump to jobs that are not really suitable for them. Having a degree of choice built into the system is certainly something that we would want, and to trust the welfare claimant as much as the taxpayer seems a very good principle. Others will have ways of elaborating on that so I do not want to take all of the oxygen out of that but it is a key thing.

On assessing assets, the Deputy raised an interesting question at the start regarding how we should think about that. It is interesting to look through the very complex means-testing around capital.

Having the means test take capital into account is principally an attempt to save money but also may be an attempt to have a system of equity. Regarding the equity principle, it is very hard to say we should not be equal. If somebody has more property than I have, surely I should receive more welfare or something like that. On the other hand, perhaps we should just take the citizen entitlement principle that even if somebody just happens to have a lot of property, they should be entitled to the same rate as other people who find themselves unemployed. That might seem wrong, but we operate that system with child benefit. We do not take any account of people's capital whatsoever. There are different principles at stake and balancing those is quite difficult.

I have seen figures which show that the cost of means testing is between 4% and 8% of the total amount that is actually paid out, which seems like an extraordinary system to have in place. The less we means test, perhaps, the more money we will have to give. It might seem like there is a positive circle in that. Like a sheep in the headlights, I will pass on to Dr. Griffin.