Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Following up on the last Deputy's point, I know the place he is talking about in the city.

I am just throwing this out regarding local authorities and the county council. When I was on Cork County Council, we had a Traveller's consultative committee and it was absolutely excellent. Members of the Travelling community ran that committee. We were the ears while they were the mouths. It seemed to work and was very progressive. I always felt in that committee that the local authority was the one that seemed to be restrained by what it could provide. Some of the Traveller families wanted to be on a site but also needed land for the horses and so on. Cork County Council progressed that project a number of years ago and fair play to it. I listened to what the Deputy said as well. I can understand the local connection to an area but it is human nature to shop around. Why go into one shop and get five things when you can go into the next shop and get ten of the same things for €1? People will go to that one. Without setting up another entity, as referenced by the last speaker, is there a way, even as committee members, for us to do something that could force - though "force" is the wrong word - or put forward some kind of a legislative measure or a rule book for local authorities? Cork, Limerick and Clare all have the same rules but if you have a local connection to a particularly area, the first thing to be said to those families is that they will not be going out to Cork from Clare or whatever. However, would that be a discriminatory thing that they are being stopped from free movement and so on, and then you are caught between a rock and a hard place again?

I will go back to the original question when we were discussing the caravan loan scheme that people did not know about. That seems to be a massive issue in this country. No matter what the subject is, whether mental health or disabilities, the signposting is practically nil. When you do not know where to go, how do you access something to assist you? When we are talking about getting value for money while spending public money, would it be more productive to possibly go back to the start? The chair may not like this but would it be better if we went back to the start and to brass tacks? First, training needs to go into all local authorities. The Travelling community also has to be involved with a rule book that states what the rules are. There has to be to and fro on this because - I am very frank on this - you will get troublesome families and attitudes from certain local authorities where some are more progressive and others do not want to deal with it at all. Some local authorities have the attitude that it is not their problem and they push it on. How do you find a balance in that through a legislative measure to say that from here on in these are the rules which both sides have to respect? Then if both sides play the game, whatever kind of accommodation programmes will be facilitated. At the moment, it all seems to be given free rein which is very frustrating for the Travelling families but also for the local authorities. Nobody has set out a basic set of rules to say things cannot be done. I understand where the witnesses are coming from regarding the discrimination within law but there also has to be rules like in any civilisation. There are rules there and they are there for a reason. I will go back and ask a simple question. Would it be better to start at the beginning and give, say, Cork County Council, given that I was on it, a new rule book through the Traveller's committee, the housing Department with the assistance of the community law mediation companies, FLAC and the whole lot? This would be the new rule book and we could start on that basis. Would that be a better plan? We seem to be going around in circles all the time. That has to frustrate everyone. It frustrates us. Can we not start again and say from here on in these are the rules and the parameters within which we work? If people do not like it in one place, they can go to the next place but by the way those rules will be the exact same there. It harmonises the problem if that is the way I can look at it. That may still be a better way than what we have now because at the moment, it just goes left, right and centre and it is not working. It really frustrates me on a personal basis. The Traveller families are trying to get the best they can get which is totally understandable. The local authorities are trying to provide, within their remit, the best they can provide. However, nobody seems to be able to go above and beyond and as we said, many of these have to be done case by case, based on their needs. As I said, would we be better to start again with a new rule book and say, "Right lads, from here on in, this is it"? Then you can make a case. Each local authority could then make a case. As we were on about it, nearly €20 million was allocated to Spring Lane. It started as 15-unit site. Now, there could be up to four units. That blows everything out of the water when it comes to planning, Part 8 and it could take another ten years. Where does that money go? Does it sit in the bank? Does it go back to the Exchequer? Members can understand how it is frustrating me, so I can imagine how people out there who need this accommodation feel. The local authorities are bursting to provide it but because there is no legal rule book there, it frustrates the whole system. I am with the Deputy when he referred to the local connection to the area but you cannot use that because it would discriminate against those Traveller families. I will stop here because I could be going around and around in circles.