Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I have a few general observations. I welcome that the means test is being reviewed. On a slightly separate point, in general I like universal programmes and am philosophically of the view that if a taxation system is adequately progressive and people pay according to their means, everyone should be in a position to benefit. If a welfare state is only for the poor, then it will be a poor welfare state. Against that argument, there are limited resources and decisions must be made; there is obviously a need to ensure limited resources are targeted at those who need them the most.

I wish to give a perspective from my constituency office on means testing, when it comes up most often and when people feel most frustrated. I can see both sides to the matter, but one example of frustration is people who come into my constituency office to say that they have not qualified for X, Y or Z. This is usually pensioners. They say they worked hard and did not drink or smoke or go on too many holidays. They saved and did the right thing but are now being told that they do not qualify. While I know that the witnesses are marshalling limited resources and targeting the resources at those who require it the most, I wish to give that insight.

An issue to which I am more sympathetic relates to the pension situation of women who may not have worked most of their life, or at all, or may have worked for seven, eight or nine years until they got married or such. Usually, a woman in that situation is a qualified adult on her husband's social welfare payment. If she applies on her own, she will not qualify for a payment. This means there is a lack of independence there. I recognise that it is a household and I understand where the witness is coming from, but it sometimes means there is a lack of independence.

In some cases, alarm bells go off in the Department for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly, and the Department looks for the devil and all: past transactions, how a person maintains himself or herself, how he or she affords to go on holidays and different things like that. This can happen. Sometimes it is justifiable and sometimes it is more questionable. There are cases where there are legitimate question marks but, to be honest, I have come across cases where details were sought in respect of things that happened 30 or 40 years ago. That approach is over the top. These are general observations and the witnesses can respond on them as they wish. The issue of female pensioners who are qualified adults is of particular importance.

I wish to raise a more detailed issue relating to maintenance. While I welcome that this has been dealt with in legislation, the means testing of kinship carers is still an issue. To be fair to the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, she came back to me looking for examples of the issue. Kinship carers often have to foster children, usually relatives, unexpectedly. If the kinship carers receive contributions from the birth parents or the natural parent, the contributions are taken into account - maybe in policy, but certainly in practice - in the means testing. We provided a number of examples of this to the Minister. I made a request to the Minister's office for a meeting between Kinship Care Ireland and the Minister to discuss this. I think that would be the most fruitful thing. The problem is not necessarily with the means test itself but it is related to it. By definition, a contribution is, or traditionally has been, considered to interfere with the concept of full parental abandonment. It seems that this issue is treated as an absolute; if there is €50 for a birthday, or if there is a one-time payment of €200 and no more for five or six months, that is considered to be an interference with the concept of parental abandonment. That means that these kinds of payments can interfere with the guardian payment being available to the kinship carer.

I wish to look for one additional point in my notes but I invite the witnesses to respond on those general observations and the issue of kinship care.