Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank colleagues for their amendments and contributions.

We have discussed this at length and there is no right answer to this that I can find. I asked exactly the same questions. Is it two viable pregnancies? Is it two births? Is it after the first trimester? Why are we coming down on this? The rationale provided by the teams of officials who put this together is that it is for the protection of the surrogate and to try to avoid a situation where a woman might be pressurised into becoming a surrogate, which we are really trying to safeguard against to the greatest extent possible in this legislation. If she miscarries at whatever point in the pregnancy, there might be pressure on her to try again and again. That is what we are trying to avoid.

I am open to the word "clinical". The advice I have received is that typically at five weeks from conception, a pregnancy is a clinical pregnancy. I do not have the right answer to this. It is really about judgment and trying to make sure safeguards are in place so that women here, but more probably abroad, are not pressurised into repeated pregnancies and repeated miscarriages.

The clearest way to go is two births and there is no arguing about that. To Deputy Cullinane's point, whether it is one or three births, it is a certain number of births and that is that. We are concerned that there is a grey area before that where a woman might be exposed to coercion or pressure. We have changed it from "agreement" because agreements can come and go, but once a pregnancy is involved, the woman is fully committed. Let us say she miscarries several times after four weeks or four months, are we potentially leaving her exposed by saying that does not count and that she can try again and again? That is the rationale.

I do not know that there is a right answer. I imagine this is one of the issues that will be looked at closely in the three-year review. I am open to colleagues' views on it. I am open to ongoing discussions with officials. That is the reason we have it as we do.