Dr. Cathal Gallagher:

I have memories of all those discussions. The Deputy is right. We experience that ourselves and it is the structure we have to work inside. When we say mitigation is complex, it depends on the particular place. Sometimes it is easy. For example, if we are working with the National Roads Authority and it is doing something anyway and has the permissions, it can be straightforward. That is why there is a level of complexity. The Deputy is at one end. Sometimes it can involve 11 or 12 reports, some of which are outside our competence. It could be heritage or architecture. There is a suite that needs to be done.

I propose that going forward, instead of having the stakeholders do it, as part of the barrier mitigation programme, we set up a framework so that all the heavy lifting is done to get these supports in place. A framework would be developed for heritage surveys or whatever else and we would try to streamline that. The restriction on what needs to be done is driven by the environmental legislation we have to adhere to, whether that be under the habitats directive or the water frameworks directive. It is about trying to balance a suite of issues in order to get the work done. We are all on the same page about trying to get the work done but it is complex.

The other complexity the Deputy neatly outlined is that, even if it is decided that a mitigation can be put in, you have to ensure it works. You have to get into the flows and attraction. Even that, on an upstream, is complex. You put the rock pass in, then you also have to consider how fish will get down over it. Ideally, while there might not be the biggest appetite for it, the removal is often the most effective and efficient solution to get to where we want to be. It not only fulfils the requirements for us as fish experts, we have to bear in mind that barriers are the problem. Under the water framework directive, there is water quality. Under the habitats directive, species, biodiversity and eel regulations are impacted on. This is a complex problem and it is affecting a huge amount of Ireland's commitments, deliverables and reporting cycles across all these different things.

We hope from setting up a new programme that we would be able to help to set up the framework and structures to be able to deliver the programme on a national level and to make it easier to do that but it is not easy to do. It is complex.