Rónán Mullen (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I will start with our Australian and New Zealand friends. Again, they should not take any of these questions personally. They are designed to elucidate information.

If I am correct in thinking there are 110,000 medics and doctors in Australia and another 17,000 in New Zealand, for how many active doctors and medics do the witnesses speak? If they have 1,000, that would be less than 1% of medics. The witnesses might tell us how many people they represent.

I am informed that for VAD training in Victoria, less than 5% of those trained are from palliative care backgrounds. Is that true? I understand why the witnesses are very much keen to present this in terms of an element of palliative care as opposed to something that undermines palliative care as, indeed, Irish and other experts have feared and who have expressed such fears.

I noticed that on at least two occasions, Dr. Allcroft seemed to confine conscientious objection to this or, indeed, objection to VAD, as being religious and faith based. Is that tactical? Would he accept that there are many people, because we certainly heard from them, who are not necessarily believers at all but who see this as unprofessional, unmedical and as undermining the relationship between doctors and patients and, ultimately, as being undermining of human dignity and causing people to feel a burden, as being incapable of expansion, which results in changed attitudes among the state and the planners and people who pay for medicine and so on? These are not just religious and faith-based concerns. Does Dr. Allcroft accept that among those who object to euthanasia or assisted suicide in his country are many who do not necessarily do so for religious and faith-based reasons but, indeed, other professional reasons?

I also noticed that in stressing palliative care, as the witnesses do, it has been suggested to me and from what I have seen that euthanasia, since it is a cheaper option, can actually disincentivise palliative care investment. The experiences of Belgium and New South Wales would appear to suggest that. Certainly, Canada, for example, had that situation where money was pulled back from palliative care. Is there not a clear dividing line between care that provides assistance in living and euthanasia and assisted suicide, which deliberately cause death?

We might look at the issue in Canada. Out of the 35 palliative clinics in Quebec in 2015, not one offered euthanasia on site. After threats of funding cuts, however, only four held out against medically-assisted dying. Then, the provincial government passed legislation to force them all to provide euthanasia. Is it not part of the dynamic here that palliative care does come under pressure in its funding, even though Dr. Allcroft seeks to portray euthanasia and assisted suicide as a dimension of palliative care at the end?

I mention the impact on doctors. The witnesses can tell me whether they agree with this or whether I am correct but again, it has been drawn to my attention that an Australian study in 2020 showed that up to one half of doctors who participated in assisted death experienced significant psychological and emotional distress. That is from an article by Kelly, Handley, Kissane and others in Palliative and Supportive Care of 2019, entitled, "'An indelible mark' the response to participation in euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide among doctors: A review of research findings".

Are the witnesses aware of that? Is my report on that correct in their view? What do they have to say to that? I notice also-----