Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses. I sat on Cork County Council's Traveller consultative forum many years ago. There was a very powerful group of Traveller women on the group. We are now approaching the end of 2023. As Ms O'Donoghue said, the Government stated it would deal specifically with Spring Lane but we are 30 years behind when it comes to providing accommodation. I reiterate Deputy Stanton's comment that education is the key but you need appropriate settings to get that education.

Mr. O'Sullivan said that 32 applicants are still waiting for a loan. We have spoken in the committee numerous times about providing alternative accommodation such as pods, which could last longer and be better value for money. The solution requires people to think outside the box.

I was very interested in what Ms O'Shea said about the submissions. We have to take at face value Cork City Council's statement that it received over 1,000 submissions but I find it very strange that the witnesses were told that verbally. When Deputies table parliamentary questions asking about, say, a blue biro there may be no mention of blue biros in the response but at least there will be a response in writing.

I thank the witnesses for being here. I understand the work that goes into this.

I would love to be in Spring Lane working face to face with people and thrashing out the issues. There is such a mixture of families there. We know there are issues, but there are issues in every place. At least if you can go in and consult face to face, you can thrash it out and say what the craic is. If there are, for example, 32 of them, you can ask why they are not getting it. What has been done or not done wrong? What can be done to fix what was wrong and work to progress it? This committee is committed. There are no politics on this committee, which is brilliant. Ms O'Donoghue mentioned there could be more than 100 children on that site alone who are not getting basic education, never mind washing, electricity, showers or whatever. Without singling out one in particular, I cannot understand how any council in 2023 can hide behind excuses. That is how I feel about the so-called submissions. People object for various reasons. However, as Deputy Stanton said, you should find out what they are, have that conversation and try to thrash it out.

A national campaign on racism was mentioned. I think we need a national campaign informing people of the Traveller tradition is, and why it seems different. If the normal Joe Soap is not willing to look outside the box they are not willing to change. If you are not willing to change, your normal reactive mode is defence. You defend yourself against whoever the opposition is, for example, the Traveller people. You do not want to sit and learn what their beliefs or traditions are. The Traveller mental health group was outside Leinster House during the week. I spoke to someone who is one of only two tinsmiths left. I told him that I worked in construction years ago, and our building site was beside a halting site in County Kildare. We had to bring specific timber up from County Cork, which was the only place you could get it. We arrived in the building site, parked the van and trailer, went for tea, came back and the timber was gone. I decided we needed a cunning plan. We went into the halting site and asked for who was in charge. We met them, and said we would need security for the following six months and they would get paid. We had that conversation, and it lasted less than one hour. We offered a deal. We would go for dinner and when we returned the timber would be back. We returned from dinner and the timber was back. That site did very well, and we benefited because we had the security. Why? We went in and talked to them face to face. We dealt with them in their own language, and respected their culture. I think that is one thing society is now missing; the culture associated with the Travelling community. I was proud to have a conversation with that man and told him I even sourced my own copper cylinder that time. A coal bucket was made for me, and I still have it. It is an amazing trade. The key is to get that information and understanding out to people. It will first take down the barriers so the conversation can be had. As Deputy Stanton also knows, there are a lot of Traveller families on the outskirts of Midleton.. It is absolutely brilliant and amazing. I could not say how many years they have been there but they all are integrated into society. One of the lads used to cut my hair, and the whole lot. They were given a chance and a listening ear.

I told the Chair a while back that I did not want this to be a talking shop. If we have to, we will bring in Cork City Council, Cork County Council, or any county council, and ask its representatives what is their immediate plan, their five-year plan and their ten-year plan. We do not want to be asking them for their 30-year plan. We know there are issues. We have spoken about going to Spring Lane and other places to say we need to get to the crux of this. We will not be there to judge anybody. We want to go in to assist councils and associations like those of our guests to do this as fast as we can but as appropriately as we can. We also want to get value for money. We will ask each and every family what their plan is and what they genuinely need. It might sound like massive work. Each family is very different, even though they might all be living in the same place. Some may not want to change and some might be open to change. However, if we are to get anything done through this committee, education and accommodation are the two key things. There will also be employment, but you cannot get into employment unless you have education. You will not have a chance at anything unless you have accommodation, because you need a postal address. It will have to go back to brass tacks very fast. I would love to see this committee have the ability to deliver what Ms O'Donoghue and others are saying should have been delivered 30 years ago. From Deputy Stanton's parliamentary question there is surely a justification for a jump from €12 million to €20 million in a short period. Why is it so expensive? Why is it taking so long?

This is not really a question to the witnesses. If they were on any other housing list, not part of a Traveller organisation, and were told as an applicant that they needed to put €40,000 down before applying for housing - I could not repeat the words here, but you know what you would be told. That is the beauty of this committee. People need to hear this. It is possibly discriminatory, because I cannot see it anywhere else in the country. If somebody came into my office and told me they wanted to go on the social housing list, and I told them I wanted €40,000 it would seem ludicrous. We will assist in any way we can. The witnesses should never be afraid to ask a stupid question. The stupid response is the problem we have to deal with. However, on this side of the room I guarantee the witnesses my full support in whatever they want to do. This needs to be done. The days of talking are over. If there are more than 100 children on that site alone, God knows how many families there are. The conditions are substandard. We know there are issues, but you can deal with them as well. The reason is that where there is an action, there is an instant reaction. We need to get that action removed, that is, the antisocial side of it, but you cannot have that unless you have harmony, and people happy and comfortable and so on. I will not take up any more time, but the witnesses should keep doing what they are doing. If we can help in any way, we certainly will.