David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Can I come back to the Minister on that, please? I accept what he said but this is my difficulty. The head of the HSE, the head of the Department and the Minister have come into this committee several times over the course of this year in the context of the overspend in health this year. We know that it will be in the region of €1.5 billion and, in cash, just under €1 billion. They have all consistently said that the majority of it is recurring, will have to be provided for next year and is led by demand on the one hand and inflation on the other. Yet all of the documentation I have from the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform says something else. I will finish on this. When it comes to activity and demand, it point-blank contradicts what the Minister just said. Again, the briefing note for the meeting on 6 October says that activity levels have not reflected the substantial increases in funding. Despite an increased funding level of 37% for the acute sector since 2019, it says that the majority of activity indicators only increased by 1% to 10% and, therefore, expenditure overall in the acute sector cannot be attributed to increased complexity outpatient and ED attendances as stated by the HSE, by Department of Health and by the Minister and that there is no clear data to support this claim. That is the point. That for me creates a serious problem for us when we are talking about Revised and Supplementary Estimates, where the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform point-blank refuses to accept that the data and the Minister, the Department and the HSE present is accurate.

I will make one final point because my understanding is that the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform has not had any conversations whatsoever with the head of the HSE. The head is only in the job a short period of time. If the Department was so concerned about all of these issues, why is it that there was absolutely no engagement whatsoever with the head of the HSE? I will come back in in the second round on that, if I may, with follow-up questions.