David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I went through this in lengthy detail with the Secretary General of the Department and the head of the HSE. The head of the HSE was clear. There is a difference between the cash deficit, which is money that is paid out up to the end of the year, and what is presented as accruals. That is expenditure that has occurred in 2023 but has not been paid. It might be paid in January, February or March 2024, but applies to costs arising from 2023. The Secretary General said he does not have that money for next year so that will be the first charge on his accounts next year. If the Minister has a different interpretation, that worries me.

I will leave that and move to my next question. I submitted freedom of information, FOI, requests to get to the bottom of what was happening in respect of the discussions between the Minister's Department and the Department of public expenditure and reform. The Minister will appreciate that was the subject of a lot of public commentary. There are, and certainly were, very sharp differences, it seems, between the Department of Health, the HSE and the Department of public expenditure and reform. The Department of public expenditure and reform ultimately signed off on the budget for this year and next year. I presented some documents to the Minister before the committee meeting and I understand he will need time to go through them. However, some interesting briefing notes were given to the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe. Before I get to those, will the Minister remind me and confirm what he, the Department and the head of the HSE said about the deficit for this year? Whatever disagreement there might be as to cash deficits and accruals, the reality is that most of the cost is recurring. That is what we were told. We were told that expenditure will recur next year. Is that the view of the Minister?