David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I want to recap on some of the conversations we had during my first contribution. I am sure the Minister will agree that while he has his job to do, we have our job to do, which is to hold him, the Department of Health and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to account when it comes to the funding for health in 2023 and the consequences of whatever is done in 2023 for 2024. I agree that there will always be robust debate between the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and line Departments and very robust engagement on funding - healthy tension, to call it that. That will always be the case. There is, however, a big difference between what we see in all the documents we have, and even the performances of the Minister, and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform as regards health. There are sharp differences that do not make sense.

I will make the following point, because the Minister said he is now in the position whereby other people in his position, whomever they might be, at some point may have the same conversations. I agree with him on that, but something is either factual or it is not. ELS is meant to be scientific, a bit like safe staffing. We have a science and a framework. It is meant to deal with inflation, demographics, carryover measures, etc. It is a formula. It cannot be arbitrary or discretionary, yet there is this fundamental difference between what the Department of public expenditure and reform is saying and what the Department of Health is saying, which makes no sense. It is the same with inflation. Inflation is what it is. It is the same with the causes of the deficit. It is either caused by increased demand and inflation or it is not. Again, there are sharp differences.

Worse than that, then, it seems that trust had broken down. I refer to the first meeting the Minister had with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and his team. Officials from the Department of Health were at the meeting. I will not note all who were at the meeting. The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, was not at the meeting but the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, was, as far as I can see. Here is what the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform said in the briefing note to the Minister-----