Mr. Tony Murphy:

No. Most of the money is being used to keep the country going. It is current expenditure. It will be different. Under the Ukraine facility, there will be €33 billion in loans and €17 billion in grants. That is where it becomes more of an issue for us. On the terms of the loans, what we can do is to check how the loans have been raised on the market by the Commission to ensure the money goes to the right bank accounts in Ukraine. If there is any requirement for conditionality around the drawdown of the loans, we can check that the Commission has assessed that it has been satisfied. It is at that level. It will be different when it comes to grants because we are then moving into the sphere of reconstruction, or whatever it might be. This is why I think the €17 billion will not do a whole lot in that regard. An awful lot of funds are going to be required down the road. Someone will have to pay the price.

I do not know if the committee is aware that we issued a special report approximately two years before the war broke out. We audited Ukraine and concluded it was one of the most corrupt countries. That was then and this is now. The situation has changed. However, I have received contact from different countries that are donors in Ukraine whose worry is not about now, because they acknowledge the need for support to keep the country going, but who tell me that when the whole reconstruction starts, we must ensure there are proper anti-corruption and anti-fraud measures and proper governance structures in place. We liaise a little with the Ukrainian court of auditors, which is like the auditor general here. That is, however, limited. Five Ukrainian auditors are working on a kind of secondment in the European Court of Auditors at the moment. Their office is not functioning so they have come to train with us. It is an evolving situation but it will become much more of an issue when the grant expenditure kicks in because taxpayers' money will be being spent and not loans.