Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Yes. That conditionality could cause problems. Again, when we get to the real coalface of the real people we are dealing with there is what I call a Victorian attitude that if a person gets the dole, he or she must be available for work and actively seeking work. There are some people I know who are not disabled, or certainly would not qualify for disability allowance, but who are highly unlikely to even get employment on a community employment scheme. We are not going to deprive them of income. I have a much more liberal view than Professor Murphy; I say we should just give the income. I do not believe there are too many people who are capable of work who do not want to work. I have never found them. I have worked at the coalface of creating employment as a manager of a co-operative society. I have been involved in employment schemes and set them up on behalf of the State. The rural social scheme was set up during my time. I wrote the specification for that, not the Department.

It was messed up subsequent to 2011 and totally destroyed, but that is another day's work. That is particularly the case with couples. We are then back to means testing. Believe it or not, the way I had done the means testing was much more liberal. When Professor Murphy talks about a participation income, is she talking about recipients having to try to engage?