Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats) | Oireachtas source

I understand that, which is why I am surprised there are so many references to international norms. That is why I want to see the figures.

I will move on to the allegation that a meeting took place in February 2020 and to the letter that has been circulating for the past week or so, which we are told is a record of that meeting with Ms Hardiman. Ms Hardiman has said in two different statements that she did not give approval. No one said she did. The allegation is that Ms Hardiman was made aware of the proposal to use these springs. The letter from two consultants refers to that meeting. It says they met Ms Hardiman to talk about Magec rods but the other purpose of the meeting was to inform her that the two consultants did not favour the use of the Magec rods - I understand they have not been used in Temple Street hospital - and were proposing a different solution, which was a spring-assisted distraction device. They said they believed that was the right solution for this small cohort of children with complex needs but that the techniques were not commercially available. They claim they told the families that these were off-label devices and that as CEO they needed to make Ms Hardiman aware of this and requested any guidance they may need. That is what is in the letter from two consultants who say it is a record of their meeting with Ms Hardiman. Ms Hardiman confirmed today - I understand for the first time - that the meeting took place.