Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I hear Mr. O'Sullivan's pain. I was lucky enough to be spokesperson on mental health in the last term so I am well aware of budgets and where money should be spent and where it is actually being spent. There are choice words that I would not use in this committee because I would not be allowed to use them. I see Mr. O'Sullivan's point about CORU. Whatever number it will be, you have to accept that there must be a level of standardisation where everybody can come in under the same banner.

Based on my own experience of working in mental health, people tend to protect their own patches. Regardless of whether it is psychotherapists on one side, psychologists on the other side and counsellors in the middle, it is a case of "don't rock the boat, they might hear about it, they might take it off us". This is a pattern I see even in the CHO areas within the HSE. Let us be honest; level 8 is a very high qualification. I have been on record for many years as saying that we are facing into a tsunami of mental health problems. We are probably in the tsunami, particularly since Covid. You cannot access services at the moment. Even if you have money, it is extremely expensive. In his statement, Mr. O'Sullivan said that there is no standardisation for qualifications so anyone can call himself or herself one, two or three, which is very worrying when you do not have regulation. The Government is stalling on the backs of the HSE. We are going to set up a board but we have not done it yet. This is crazy. How can we move on or resolve anything if we do not have a board that looks after all this?

It has been stated that four years on from the appointment of the members of the counsellors and psychotherapists registration board, it is not possible to give a timeframe for when this will be open because it is complicated. What is making this so complicated?

I cannot understand why Mr. O'Sullivan is in here. This service is very much needed. Pilot projects have been mentioned. There is talk of putting psychotherapists into schools. Guidance counsellors take over all this in schools because they do not have the resources. Psychotherapists would probably be the easiest ones to get in there. Would tax relief on expenses be passed on to patients? Would it make counselling cheaper and more accessible?

In his statement, Mr. O'Sullivan said that "subsequent to this, CORU will reflect on the information received from the consultation process and make any amendments necessary to its proposals". Does it actually need amendment? I do not know what the proposals because we do not have a board. Who is making these decisions? I am very worried about that. In the current climate, it is very worrying. We are talking about bringing all services together.

It is expensive craic to do your terms, your college and the whole lot and not be treated the same. That is why I feel it has been totally disjointed between certain centres. I ask Mr. O' Sullivan to answer those two questions first. I just cannot get my head around it and that he is here at the petitions committee fighting this when it makes common sense. It was decided a number of years ago that this was supposed to happen and it has not happened.

We deal with different things within EU law and it is stated that provisions are made within EU law for individual member states to provide exemptions for VAT for certain activities in the public interest. It is huge that it refers to being in the public interest. Somebody is lagging. Somebody is not prepared to pick up the slack here. I do not know why this has taken so long. I have said it before that the one thing that is missing here 99% of the time is bloody common sense; that we cannot do it. This is not the first time we have got notification from the European Ombudsman to say we can do it. Pardon the pun, but there is not a noose tied around us and we have the freedom to make up our own mind sometimes, and if it is in the public interest then it should be done. I am definitely going to check up on that even if I have to write to the European Ombudsman to investigate it myself on the basis Mr. O'Sullivan was here appealing for a joined-up approach where all these vital services that are complementary to each other should be on a level playing field, which they currently are not. That causes a restriction and the ones who suffer are those who need it most, namely, the children and families who need assistance and help.

That was a bit long-winded, but my main two points are about why there is not joined-up thinking here and how can we push on the so-called imaginary board, or jobs for the boys as I have called it, because that is what I am worried about here. There will be resistance. Everything should be on a level playing field. Mr. O'Sullivan made an important point about setting of the levels. Whether it is level 6, 7 or 8, it should be based on that. A person should be qualified enough. It does not make him or her better than the psychologist versus the counsellor versus the psychotherapist. There seems to be an awful resistance there.