Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I have a number of questions I would like to put Mr. Duggan with respect to the heads of the Bill here before us.

First of all, I want to follow up on the question that Senator Murphy asked about the threshold of 70 years of age. The threshold of 65 for a pensioner, or now 66 as the case may be, was set when the life expectancy was much less than it is today. The life expectancy in 1960 was 65 years of age. The life expectancy today is 82 years of age. My question is, should we be allowing additional flexibility beyond someone's 70th birthday if they wish to contribute? I take into account the point Deputy Ó Cuív made that from an actuarial point of view, there probably would not be a huge benefit. Where there would be a benefit is from someone who has a mixed contribution record, who is in good health, working at 70 and wants to continue working beyond their 70th birthday and make a contribution if they have not reached the 40-year threshold at this stage. The witnesses might comment on that.

I have listened intently to what was said on the register of caring periods, and I acknowledge the point that Deputy Ó Cuív made. We really need to look at how this is drafted in the primary legislation. A lot of these problems, into the future, can be overcome by the carer's support grant. There is an opportunity here for the Department to redouble its efforts in making people aware of the carer's support grant. I am amazed every year when I come across people who have not applied for the carer's support grant. There is a perception that this grant is means tested and that they are not entitled to anything. There is a failure of communication on the part of us all on this. It would overcome a lot of these challenges into the future and I would strongly advise people to avail of the carer's support grant. Up to now, it would automatically have given them credits up to the 20 years. It is also one way to provide certification of that fact. It is an area that the Department needs to look at again because the system is falling down with regard to the uptake on that.

I would like the witnesses to clarify this for me. When someone reaches 66 years of age and they decide to continue to make contributions, or they decide to defer the drawing of their pension for a supplementary or enhanced pension, is it the intention that they will be able to avail of the other supplementary supports like free travel and the TV licence, etc. on their 66th birthday, regardless of whether they activate their pension? I would like to have that clarified.

One other issue that the committee has considered and made a recommendation on is about a similar application. It comes back to the caring periods that Deputy Ó Cuív mentioned regarding children. There is another cohort of people being missed in this debate today and they are foster carers. They are caught between a number of stools here. They are not actively contributing to the workforce and they are not going to be able to make those PRSI contributions but they are providing a very valuable service to society as a whole. It is the firm view of the committee, which has made this recommendation in the past, that this legislation would also incorporate provision for long-term foster carers as well as long-term carers.

On the caring periods, I want to clarify that this does not have to be a constant 20-year period. It does not have to be a period of care for a single person. It could be a number of people incrementally over an intermittent period. The reason I raise this is that we would have had - and again, this mainly concerns women - a daughter in the household whose mother became incapacitated for some reason, and carries out ten to 15 years of care. That person then passes away. Then, that woman has to try to retrain or reskill in order to try to get back into the workforce. Then her father takes ill and requires ongoing care for a period of time subsequent to that. Is it the 15 years plus the five or six with the gap in between, or does it have to be a continuous period of that, within reason? I would be grateful if the witnesses could clarify that because there is no clarity on that within the legislation.

This is something I spoke to the witnesses privately about earlier. Regarding what is being proposed here, the caveat on the total contribution issue that Deputy Ó Cuív has rightly articulated is something that we as a committee are going to have to look at in our recommendations. All of us want to see this implemented. I know that it is the intention of the Department and in the heads, we are talking about 1 January 2024. It is with the office of the parliamentary draftsperson at the moment. It is very ambitious to have this legislation passed and enacted by 1 January next, purely from the point of view of the production of the legislation. While it is simple in its objectives, it is actually a very complex piece of legislation because there are a substantial number of amendments to the whole consolidated Acts relevant to social welfare legislation. The wording of that can have very serious implications for people if there is an error in it. It is not a piece of legislation that can be easily drafted. It is this committee's recommendation that there would be provision made in the legislation to ensure that if it is not enacted by 1 January 2024, the provisions of this legislation would apply on a retrospective basis back to 1 January 2024. I would like the witnesses to comment on that.

The other question I have is on credited contributions. Let us say there is someone who is eligible for credited contributions prior to their 66th birthday under the various schemes - home carer's credit, jobseeker's benefit or allowance, or whatever the case may be - and they do not draw their pension at 66, and continue to work. Then they become eligible for some other payment that would entitle them to a credited contribution. Can that credited contribution still accrue up to the threshold of ten or 20 years as the case may be, or up to a person's 70th birthday? Then, let us say there is someone with a mixed contribution who has worked 18 years as a carer and beyond their 66th birthday. If they want to try to get a full contribution or as near to a full contribution record as they can, and then have to go back as a carer of maybe a spouse, can they get those additional credited contributions at that stage?

The other question I have is around the supplementary heads that are provided, which are the implications of these decisions for the working-age payments. I do not see any reference to the working family payment. Could the witnesses say what the implications are for someone of 66 or 67 years of age with dependent children who are eligible for the working family payment?

Finally, I want to look at head 27. I am always wary when we deal with deciding officers and when the Department introduces primary legislation on deciding officers.

Will Mr. Duggan explain what head 27 is actually about and how it will apply? I am not clear from reading the head exactly how it applies and I would like clarity on that.