Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for the fantastic work that has been put into this. It really shows the power of a citizens’ assembly to mobilise a sleeping giant, in a way, to confront people with the science and to get them to come down to what the options are and how we go about it.

I have a few basic questions. The witnesses talked about setting targets. What targets would they set? The number of rivers in pristine condition was mentioned in the presentation. What are the top six and how do we rank them? Having some sort of framework would help to close in on where the enforcement gaps are and so on.

Regarding mobilising people, where do the witnesses see early wins? To build confidence in people, we need to see early wins. I am interested in how the two processes of climate and biodiversity dovetailing together under the Taoiseach’s umbrella, so to speak, are seen. Where do the witnesses see co-benefits occurring, both climate and biodiversity simultaneously, so we can have win-wins?

I have two other questions. The witnesses talked about giving nature a right. In experience in other matters, where a tool of litigation around rights is created, has that been successful in mobilising the sort of community support that is needed? Many people, when they see a proposal for litigation, see that they will be forced, as Ms Jones said, to change the habits of a lifetime and that it will be done very abruptly by some legal ruling, with no supporting policies. How do the witnesses see that working?

My last question is on farming. The witnesses certainly have gone out of their way to say farmers are a large part of the solution. I am interested in where they see the biggest challenges in farming. They said farmers should be paid for doing the right thing. Can they point to three measures, say, for which farmers could be paid? A lot of people talk about it how it would be great to pay farmers for draining their wetlands, for example, but when we bring in the experts, they tell us they cannot measure what the carbon gain will be from draining those lands. Everyone then throws their hands in the air and says no payment model can be derived. It is a question of how we practise. Farmers want to see that in ten years, they will have a prosperous farming practice. It might not all come from food sales. It may also come from environmental services. However, they do not see the paths to the environmental services aspect. Can the witnesses shed light on that? I have asked more than enough questions for the moment.