Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Of course not, and I am not suggesting that, but if any of us were secretly recorded by our colleagues for two years, and if someone took some of the things we had said as stand-alone comments and those comments appeared on the front pages of newspapers, I imagine none of us would come out looking terribly well. I have a real issue with the fact that officials in my Department were recorded for several years without their knowledge and that selected portions of that were provided to newspapers. I have a real issue with the fact that civil servants in my Department were named. I very much have an issue with that and it is an example of the reputational damage I am talking about. I fully accept the Cathaoirleach's point and I thank him for that.

One of the things I have always admired about the Chair, if I may say so, is that he has constantly and strongly advocated for the need to do things more quickly in this country and that delivery is not where any of us would want it to be. Obviously, healthcare is my brief and he and I have talked about this previously. Indeed, the Chair and I, along with our colleague, Deputy Murnane O'Connor, met in his constituency just to get moving on a very modest upgrade to an ambulance base. These things should just happen and should not require Deputies and Ministers meeting up for them to happen. The Chair has advocated for this so well over many years

The problem, as I see it, is two things. One is, if the cost of making a mistake is so high, people will just stop making decisions. It is incumbent upon us in the Oireachtas to try to find the right balance that says there must be total transparency, which speaks to the Chair's exact point and there must be accountability. We have to get the balance right because if we do not, what will happen is that people will stop making decisions.

The other thing that happens, and it is one which the Chair and I have spoken about at length, is that the apparatus of the State starts creating processes which cover everybody, where nobody can ever be blamed for anything, and the result of those processes is that nothing happens. The public spending code, which in fairness to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, has been radically improved recently, has, I believe, 17 stages in it, four of which involve Government decisions at Cabinet, and the result of that is nothing happens. The Chair and Deputy Doherty will be aware that for all of the many things we will not have got right, over the past three years we have expanded the workforce, built more primary care centres, added more hospital beds and had more access to diagnostics than has happened in a very long time. Part of the reason we are now seeing things happen is because the Government and I, and all of this in the Oireachtas, together with my Secretary General, my Department, and Bernard Gloster have been pushing for people to make decisions.

I know we all know this but it is very important that if we as legislators and elected representatives are going to demand that public and civil servants make decisions at a rapid pace, that they do not surround themselves with the kinds of protections and processes that mean no one can ever be blamed for anything, because we brought in this external company, and then we brought in another external company, and then we had the major capitals project look at it, and after that we took another review, and before we actually did anything, we went right back to basics and asked ourselves should we be even doing this in the first place, and it goes on and on and on and nothing happens-----