John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Okay. I think when he was here the Secretary General said he would give us a copy of the email he was attempting to send and we are waiting for that.

On the Minister's comments, he mentioned that the Civil Service and the public service must make decisions at the various levels within both organisations and I accept that. Those who are making decisions are being paid accordingly. If a person has a particular responsibility and a decision is required, he or she is being paid in that position to make those decisions. In this committee, the Committee of Public Accounts, or any other committee, the Accounting Officer or the officials are held to account on accountability and transparency, so I do not accept reputations are attacked. If an Accounting Officer is being questioned here, he or she is a well-travelled individual. He or she is not a big softie and can generally handle things at these committees. I do not accept reputations are either damaged or attacked, but people are certainly being held to account. Sometimes in committees what causes that dynamic to become a little bit harsh on both sides is the lack of co-operation, the lack of real information and the lack of a sincere attempt to answer a question. Then it gets out of hand because everyone gets irritated. The State has to learn it must be more proactive and open, with the exception of revealing the minutes of a meeting or the workings of an agency to the point where we are playing into the contractor's hands. We as a committee and other committees in the Houses do not set out to ruin reputations, but there is the old attitude within the Civil Service and there is the real world here. Some may not like it, but that is the way it is and civil and public servants are well used to that type of interaction.

What concerns me about the Department of Health - this is not a general statement but the Minister was talking about delivering policy and so on - is the various reports in newspapers, for example on the recent resignation of Brendan Lenihan. I am not asking the Minister to comment on it, but I read these reports, as does the public. There is talk about audit and responsibility, but Mr. Lenihan is saying there is no audit and poor accountability. We, therefore, have to ask those questions. Maybe on another occasion someone might explain to us about his resignation, and the others, and indeed the whistleblower who has now gone away but revealed so much through national media outlets. All those questions remain bubbling away, allowing public opinion to be formed. They need to be addressed in an upfront way by the Department itself. There was this play on words with Dr. Tony Holohan, the €2 million and was he being paid out of that and was the €2 million for one year, ten years or whatever. We lost Tony Holohan, but quite frankly it was a deplorable way in which he was treated and this whole process literally fell apart in public view. That needs to be discussed within the Minister's Department, because it has to do with good governance. We are presenting a report and this is the last engagement on the particular issue of the secondment. The question for me then is who are we to believe, or is it now clearer than ever before what a Secretary General can do or not do. Can a Secretary General commit to a spend of €2 million? That is what we were told happened. In this case it was €2 million every year for so many years. The Secretary General in this case says he had the right to do that.

Is that the case? If it is not the case, is it the Minister who has the right to do it or who has the right to do it? That is fundamental to the issue which is emerging between Secretaries General and Ministers. I would like to know the answer to that. As it is, I acknowledge, of course, that the Secretary General is the Accounting Officer.

I will turn to the other issue and I will bank all of my questions here. The buck stops with the Minister in respect of the children's hospital. The Minister is going to be blamed regardless of what is going to happen, and perhaps doubly so because of the statements he made when he was in opposition. Pat Rabbitte asks is that not what you do in opposition or what you say during election time? What the Minister has said will be taken into account and someone will have to answer at the end of the day. There is then the whole issue of putting that figure of €700 million into the public domain and then allowing that to appear as if that is the figure upon which we can deliver, where we, in fact, are not going to deliver on it. It has gone way beyond that.