Mr. David Hall:

Those are good points. Ms Irwin's point on the 0% rate in respect of the parked amount is correct. Her former bank is Permanent TSB and the current vulture fund is Pepper. Ms Irwin is in Cork and is not covered by the same amount of parliamentary privilege as we are here, so, for the avoidance of any doubt, her bank was Permanent TSB and the vulture fund is Pepper.

Solutions are very obvious, to a certain degree. Help is required. The Government giving renters €500 is wonderful and very helpful but Mr. Byrne's and Ms Irwin's differential to survive has gone up by €7,000, on average. The vulture fund is charging rates that we believe are required to be charged and passed on by it because it is borrowing from different infrastructure. The Central Bank did not want powers. It was discussing climate change this morning but did not want powers. There needs to be direct intervention. We need to make sure the insolvency regime is fit for purpose for those people the Deputy mentioned who are going to or are starting to go into arrears. We have a review that has been outstanding for seven years, and recommendations on the insolvency legislation have not been implemented. They are four years old now. The measures were agreed upon by creditors and debtors but not introduced.

We need an insolvency regime that is fit for purpose. We need to cap rates. We have to ensure that we stop people from drowning. It is a very straightforward thing. We should not ask many questions while people are drowning. People forget that you can drown in shallow water. Mr. Byrne and Ms Irwin have declared their own circumstances publicly today, which is very difficult, and they have done everything right. What do you do when you do everything right? Do you do everything wrong and stay in your home and not experience the stress? If, as a society, we are going to encourage people to do things correctly when they land themselves in difficulty, we must not punish them. We need to protect them going forward. In this regard, we must ask what the Central Bank's view is on capital allowances for lenders for the next cohort of people who get into mortgage difficulty. We need to cap the rates and ensure we protect people from defaulting. This is not about giving somebody welfare or helping somebody else; this is about saving people and their families, protecting their health and mental well-being and preventing the distress by doing the right thing.

The Deputy correctly implied Mr. Byrne and Ms Irwin are under pressure, as can be seen, but they are doing the right thing. We have to protect people who are doing the right thing and encourage others to do it, get help and switch. Permanent TSB has a moral obligation to step in and re-offer the mortgages, as do AIB and Bank of Ireland. Bearing in mind that we talk about affordable housing and affordable housing schemes, there are levels of protection that can be offered. Mr. Byrne and Ms Irwin and her husband are working away doing the right thing, paying their bills and making repayments as best they can. With regard to Mr. Byrne, Bank of Ireland and the offer of €305,000, there was no movement. In that context, what chance is there for the tens of thousands affected?

I do not underestimate the genuine difficulty many people are in. On seeing the pressure that those who are complying are under, can you imagine the pressure on those who are trying to comply but who do not have the wherewithal of Mr. Byrne and Ms Irwin. I am referring to their mental fortitude in doing what they have done today and protecting their families over recent years. This is not something that has just happened; it has been going on for many people and will for a cohort yet to come. There has to be intervention and there is a way. The legislation involving promissory notes ran to 298 pages. We dealt with the Covid pandemic, so we most certainly can take interventions. This is not about giving anybody a freebie. No one wants a handout; they want to be helped and protected.