Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank both witnesses. I listened to their opening statements from my office, so I am familiar with the points they have made. I have gone through both submissions as well.

One question I would like to ask both witnesses is how they would assess the understanding of Irish citizens of the current type of neutrality that we have. When we try to have an honest conversation on our current defence policy and whether it is fit for purpose in the Ireland of 2023, with the geopolitical context, not just of the war in Ukraine but other issues as well, unfortunately there are some who play politics with this and try to scare citizens into thinking that we want to align with certain organisations or have an EU-wide army. Lots of things get levelled at politicians who try to raise genuine issues around defence spending, defence capacity and what we need to do in terms of our foreign policy. Part of that comes down to a very romantic view of the type of neutrality that we have.

We hear people talk about being politically neutral and militarily neutral. I take the point that Dr. Fitzsimmons made that neither of those are accurate, which is interesting. People tend to glaze over to a certain extent because there may be a lack of understanding as to the type of neutrality, if I could use that phrase, that we have. Yet, we are quite comfortable with the fact that we are clearly very good friends with the United States and the United Kingdom, if I could put it that way, neither of which is in the European Union. We are a very proud member of the European Union. Dr. Fitzsimmons has made the point that in some ways, we have a fairly big expectation of what other countries will do for us, should we need it. The UK already assists us in protecting our airspace. We have those expectations. We have not been tested in terms of reciprocating - because while the war in Ukraine is a war in Europe, it is not a war in the European Union, - should other countries in the Union need our help in some capacity. I would appreciate a comment on that from Dr. Fitzsimmons. We have not been asked yet for the type of help we may be asked for.

On increasing our defence spending, I agree with Deputy Carthy that there is a general consensus there, but when politicians are pressed to answer on that, they refer to the recruitment and retention crisis in the Defence Forces and the need to improve pay and conditions for certain members. We all agree on that but when pressed on the need to increase our military capacity in terms of air defence and maritime defence, people get a little bit shaky. An honest conversation is needed. As a small country with limited resources, what would be required for us to be neutral? What level of increase would we need to see? As we all know, if we spend more on defence, we have less to spend on health, housing, education and all of the other things. There is a lack of an honest conversation around what is required. What would we need to do if we want to be a neutral country? We need to have that conversation with citizens. Iceland was mentioned. I am a firm believer that by pooling resources with other EU member states, which we have done to a certain extent with PESCO, we can benefit from expertise and resources in other countries. Rather than everyone doubling up on the same work in different countries, why not work together? There is certainly an appetite in this country for working together on cyberdefence because the cost of doing it is astronomical. We do not have the money to do that. I would welcome the comments of the witnesses on that.

I agree with the comments of both witnesses about our role in the world. I thank Mr. McNamara for saying that we should not overstate our presence internationally. We are well regarded but lots of countries are well regarded. We have a role to play in peacekeeping and we will always play that role. We are very proud of our UN peacekeeping missions and our Defence Forces history. We must examine greater co-operation at an EU level, and be honest about what we need to do to defend our own territory and protect our citizens, as well as having an honest conversation with citizens about the transatlantic cables and our position in the EU.

We are seen as a vulnerable point in the EU in terms of territory.

These are the kinds of open and honest conversations that are missing at a national level. It is really welcome to hear our guests' comments this morning. The debate and the conversation is finally starting to happen. I hope that we are not waiting for a bigger event, bigger than what happened in the HSE cyberattack, before we take the actions we need to take in terms of defending our territory. That particular attack on the HSE changed minds in this country in terms of the need for greater co-operation at EU level, particularly in the cyber space. I feel that people's moods are shifting on wanting to do more. The days of thinking that we can just sit back and hope nobody notices us, this small island in the Atlantic, are over. Geography used to protect us but not any more.