Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I will try to be brief. I thank our guests for being here. The debate would be added to if we had a third perspective that was coming from the position of Ireland's role traditionally and also a broader view of what Ireland's role in the world could and should be, and what we are best placed to be. That is the fundamental question we need to focus on. Quite frankly, it was missing from the presentations made by the witnesses and has been absent from much of the wider debate. I hear what the witnesses are saying with regard to experts and academics and the important role they play. Deputy Howlin quite rightly mentioned the financial crash when Mr. McNamara referenced experts. There were experts and academics who said many things at that time. The only thing they all had in common was that they did not have to suffer the consequences of the outworkings of their decisions.

One thing on which we will all agree and which has been mentioned, is that there is general consensus that Defence Forces spending needs to be increased. We need to improve the capacity of our Defence Forces. In fact, the capacity of our Defence Forces is an embarrassment to us, as legislators, and an insult to those who honour us by being members of the Defence Forces. The figure for Defence Forces strength is 8,500 or thereabouts. I am not sure of a comparable country anywhere in the world that is in such a poor state in terms of numbers, equipment and the conditions under which military personnel are expected to operate.

I have to mention the greatest obstacle to getting public buy-in to increased defence spending, which I actually support, because we need to reach a level of ambition and in some areas go beyond it. The biggest challenge I would see in getting public support for that is to even plant the seed that it is a precursor to ditching our neutrality and our role in terms of military alliances. That needs to inform the debate. We have an obvious responsibility in terms of protecting the infrastructure that goes through our waters and that is in our country. We need to be able to monitor subsea cables in the first instance. We need to know who is in our skies and seas and what their intentions are and be able to respond as appropriate.

As I said, however, the big question we need to be able to ask ourselves is what we are best placed to do. We are best placed because of what Mr. McNamara about a particular eventuality, namely, "when the global security situation fragments into more intense ... power competition and conflict". There is almost an inevitability about that. What we need to decide is whether there are states in the world that can play a role in trying to prevent that from happening, prevent more conflicts and resolve the existing conflicts. Are there any more honest power brokers that can act as intermediaries and play a role? Potentially, Ireland has a role to play in that regard.

I will make a final point on the suggestion to the effect that countries such as Ireland that do not spend on defence are freeloading and depending on others to come riding to our rescue. In the first instance, part of the analysis that is missing is whether joining military alliances or becoming more militarily aligned actually makes a country more of a threat and creates a risk in itself. Second, it ignores that when we do not spend on the military or if we do not spend as much as particularly powerful nations, it creates the scope for us to do more in terms of overseas development aid and other positive international roles. Therefore, this is not necessarily focused in on one. As I said, however, my primary question is one I am not sure our guests are in a position to answer, but it is central to the work this committee needs to do and the deliberations that will follow from it.