Professor Stephen Kinsella:

I will develop the Deputy’s point slightly because I find myself thinking about what it means to alter the structure of an economy. I will take the example of the University of Limerick.

It is the one that is obviously on my mind at the moment. We turned a series of fields into a town over a 50-year period, which altered the economic trajectory of the region. We created more jobs because UL existed. UL continues to do that and is brilliant at doing so. I would say that pound for pound, we are probably the largest economic actor in the region. If UL were a business, it would be a business worth a couple of hundred million euro. UL employs a lot of people and does a lot of good stuff.

What is interesting are the jobs that UL attracted because it existed in the first place, which speaks to a certain restrictiveness in thinking about commercial return and return on investment. Thinking in terms of the creation of public value, I have no doubt that creating the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, for example, will probably generate an economic return in the next half a decade. That is probably true also for the local hospital as it will draw more people to the region. Also, a better housing stock will draw people to a region who will, in turn, add to the productive capacity of the economy. So there is a "stitch in time saves nine" argument to be made in this instance. The question is whether things can be done quickly enough in order that the structure changes. UL did not start out with 18,000 students but with 112 students. There is a question of sequencing but it absolutely can be done. It is one of the really exciting things about these kinds of policies. We are in a position where we can make these allocative decisions and say, no, we will spend a bit here and save a bit there. If you do things like altering the structure of the ports and creating large battery farms, you have the potential to create entirely new industries and businesses as a result. It is of huge benefit. If economists had cards, this might get my card taken off me. The benefits are unquantifiable sometimes and sometimes you just have to go for them so it is not a bad thing.