Dr. Ciara Fitzpatrick:

We can definitely forward on the Department for Work and Pensions sanctions report, which provides evidence from the UK Department for Work and Pensions of the impact of sanctions specifically. That is really clear in terms of how it pushes people into low-paid precarious work. It pushes people into destitution and increases people's mental health difficulties. Overall, the detrimental impacts of sanctions and punitive conditionality, such as sanctions, outweigh the benefits. In terms of looking at the way we have a 2.7% increase in unemployment benefit in the South compared with the North, however, it has to be quite a complex overview of the cost of not having that level on society, if that makes sense.

In the North, we talk about the cost of poverty, which is having huge impacts on other public services. We are seeing higher educational underachievement, lower skills attainment and huge impacts on our mental health services and accident and emergency services. It is actually the cost of poverty, so there would have to be quite a complex cost-benefit analysis in order that, in a new Ireland or a reunified Ireland, we would understand at what level it is acceptable to set an unemployment benefit payment. I would say the Republic of Ireland is definitely much more progressive. I would go as far as saying the rate of benefit in the UK and in the North at the minute is completely negligent of people's needs. People are unable to meet their very basic needs. That is obviously borne out with the statistics. We are looking at it. It is only approximately 12% of the average wage. It really is not providing adequate support at all.

As Dr. Boland said, we certainly are not economists. We are focusing on the legislation that would be required to set really strong groundwork for a system. Dr. Boland mentioned the Danish system. I would like to mention quickly what has been happening in Scotland. There were more devolution powers in 2016 around social security in Scotland. It is not a massive difference. Approximately 15% of social security powers were devolved at that point. However, they made a real point of ensuring those key tenets of dignity, respect and the humanity of individuals were really ingrained in the Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018. That has then been reflected in all of the public services and other initiatives such as the child payment that has been activated or acted upon by the Scottish Government since then. I do not think any of us would dispute that front-line workers in job centres, as we have in the North, do amazing work. They are so attentive and empathetic. However, they are completely at the mercy of very tough legislation and very strict boundaries, in the North anyway. I know there is a gentler approach in the South but it is very difficult to exercise empathy when we have so much inhumanity integrated into the legislation.