Dr. Ciara Fitzpatrick:

I thank Mr. Brady. We have met on many occasions. Having worked with it since 1974 Mr. Brady knows the system more than I do. He knows all of the different iterations of it. It sounds like we both agree that this iteration of the system is the cruellest. As I said in my paper, I believe we are at a precipice. I cannot see how much more punitive the system can be without being a system at all. I would not call it a system of welfare. It is a system of coercion, activation and sanction.

Mr. Brady asked if I think the two Departments should meet on a formal basis. As far as I know, the summer school is directed at those civil servants who work in both of the Departments to come together and share their learnings, to share knowledge, and to exchange all valuable learnings from each of the two systems.

With regard to meeting on a formal basis - and Mr. Brady might want to come back in here - with that being much more of a political endeavour the two Ministers of the Departments would have to agree to meet on a formal basis to really look at the framework or the bones of a potential new system, which is slightly different from the interaction that is currently going on.

As Mr. Brady has said, a lot depends on how this debate develops on both sides. I believe that we would all agree that we want it to be incredibly inclusive and we want to outline the benefits of creating a new welfare state and a new welfare system that could be a model for the world, focusing on the human at the centre of it and how best we can support those who are in most need.