Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

Apologies have been received from Senator Higgins. Deputy Dillon will substitute for Deputy Farrell and Senator Kyne will substitute for Senator McGahon. I welcome them both. Today's meeting is to discuss the removal of board members of Inland Fisheries Ireland.

On behalf of the committee I would like to welcome the Minister for the Environment Climate and Communication, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and his officials to the meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or his identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the witness will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that any such direction is complied with. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex. I ask those members who are joining us online to confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex prior to making their contribution to the meeting.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Chair. I am pleased to have this opportunity to come before the committee and address the matters raised regarding Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI. I am keen to assist the committee in further understanding recent events. As the committee will be aware, there have been a number of resignations from the board of IFI, including two chairpersons in the period from April 2022.

The required quorum for a meeting pursuant to section 20(5) of the Inland Fisheries Act 2010 is five members. However, following the resignation of two board members in January, including the then chair, a quorum could not be obtained and IFI was, as a consequence, unable to carry out its key statutory functions set out under section 7 of the Inland Fisheries Act 2010.

Taking account of this, I decided on 14 February 2023 to exercise my powers, as Minister, under section 18 of the Inland Fisheries Act 2010 and removed the members of IFI on a no-fault basis. Where a Minister decides to remove the board of IFI it is open to the Minister, under section 18(5) to appoint a person or persons to carry out the functions of the board.

In that regard, I appointed two retired senior public servants, Mr. Tom Barry and Mr. Seamus Neely, on 14 February to carry out the functions of the board for a 6 month period, pending the appointment of a new board via the appointments process set out under the section 12 of the Inland Fisheries Act 2010 with the support of the Public Appointments Service.

In making the appointments under section 18(5) and in addition to carrying out the core statutory functions of IFI, I directed Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely to give particular priority to ensuring that all protected disclosures on hand in IFI, which could not be progressed in the absence of a working quorum, are dealt with promptly and in accordance with IFI’s protected disclosures policies and the provisions of the Protected Disclosures Act 2014.

I also asked them to give priority to carrying out an external review of governance within IFI, including an examination of the respective roles of the IFI board and executive. The review will be completed within six months and will include an implementation plan, delivery of which will be overseen by a new board.

My Department has been engaging with the Public Appointments Service to expedite the process of appointing a full new board. The committee has a clear statutory role in that process and I am aware that my officials have provided a briefing to the subgroup of the committee recently. They followed up on this last week in writing and with an updated briefing, following our engagement with PAS, with the clerk to the committee and the adviser, to facilitate updates to the committee members in the context of its wishes regarding the process it may initiate.

I trust this has been of assistance and I am happy to answer questions committee members may have.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister. The Minister has quoted section 18. Section 19 (2) states:

If an appointed member resigns, dies, ceases to hold office (other than on completing term of office) ceases to be qualified for office or is removed from office, the Minister shall as soon as practicable appoint a person to fill the casual vacancy so occasioned.

Why did the Minister not fill the vacancies that occurred on the board of IFI on 28 and 30 April last year?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

For the last year or more there have been significant difficulties at IFI. I had appointed Mr. Conleth Bradley, SC, to look at issues of public concern within the board that had been raised in the media. It was more appropriate for that process to be concluded rather than replacing board members in the middle of it.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

That is fair enough. The report is dated 12 July and the Minister received it on 22 or 26 July. The report cleared board of any wrongdoing. Why then did the Minister not appoint replacements?.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

To be clear, In my actions here I am not accusing anyone of wrongdoing. We acted on that report and followed its recommendations. One recommendation was to not dissolve the board which was being considered at that time. Instead, it was recommended to give it the opportunity to try to resolve the various matters. Subsequent to that, a number of further resignations took place. Following discussions with the outgoing chair, Professor Frances Lucy, that I drew the clear conclusion that the board was not functioning and that the provisions of section 18 of the Act could and should be applied. I took this course rather than trying to reconstitute the board which would have been very complicated. It is a complicated Act and it would have involved a number of Departments. The committee here also has a role in terms of board appointments. I felt that there was no prospect of getting the then board back to a functioning basis and it was more appropriate to apply the provisions of section 18.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The Minister engaged with the interim chair. When did the Minister make the decision? He acted on St Valentine's Day. When did he make the decision to sack the board?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

Clearly it was something that was worked on with the Government's colleagues. There was a number of weeks between that meeting and getting the Government decision to act in that way

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

In the Minister's letter of St Valentine's Day when he sacked the board a number of things were stated. The letter says that IFI had not implemented the recommendations of the report dated 12 July. That date is slightly misleading because the board did not actually receive a copy of the Bradley report until 14 October. An impartial onlooker might say there was enough time. However, the board did not actually receive that until 14 October.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I believe they received it in September.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The chair received it on 26 September. I am not sure why there was a three-month delay in the chairman of the board receiving it. As I understand it, the board members discussed it on 14 October.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

As I said, there was every prospect that the recommendations report could have been implemented in the subsequent months since then up to February this year. It became clear to me that was not going to be possible.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The reason for that is because the Minister did not appoint members to replace those that retired. That was the crux of the issue. The Minister also stated on 14 February that the functions of IFI remain to be performed and cannot be performed such as the signing off of the statement of internal control and the sign-off financial statements for 2021. There were serious concerns regarding the financial statements that board members had, including financial irregularities and changes to the CEO's contract. These were the actions of a prudent board acting prudently in not signing off on accounts. Does the Minister agree that it would be inappropriate for any board to sign off on accounts it did not feel were correct?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

As I said in my introductory statement, such were the difficulties by that stage that the board was not able to actually function. It was not having meetings.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

That is because Minister did not appoint members to replace those who retired. By that stage, three had retired and had not been replaced.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

The Senator has made a number of accusations, which has been characteristic of this issue for the last year. There have been accusations and counter accusations of a personal nature. I am not engaging in that. I am trying to assess whether it could have been restored as a board with the appointment of new members. I came to the clear position that was not possible. In such circumstances, I feared we might see the continuation of accusations and counter accusations and speculation about members of boards or management or other involved parties. I have never engaged in that kind of thing and I did not want that to dominate rather than the effective running of IFI.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I want to pick up Senator Kyne on his remark on the board members being sacked. As per the Minister's statement, they were not sacked. The Minister said they were removed. I do not want the committee to be seen to be impugning-----

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

That is rather pedantic. What is the difference?

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

We do not want to be seen to be impugning anybody.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

They have been impugned. I know it was on a no-fault basis but I am not sure how many State boards have ever been removed. I do not know but there have not been many and those actions, by their nature, impact on the board.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister and I appreciate his open and frank statement. My questions will, I hope, address the overall context. We have reached an impasse and the Minister has identified some of the background to it. Clearly he will not engage in the tit-for-tat exchanges that seem to exist here. Is he satisfied that the legislation is strong enough to address the situation that has evolved and developed or should we look at some legislative change that will allow him to perhaps act differently? The decisions the Minister has taken are as he has taken. That is down to the advice he has received and has to follow. Has any analysis been done of the legislative basis on which this organisation was established in order to address this situation?

Perhaps I should have put my second question first. The people who were on the board have been removed on a no-fault basis. Has the Minister or his officials had an exit discussion with each of those board members to understand their concerns? Clearly the board was not functioning and these are people who are of high standing, some of whom were appointed by this committee and some by a previous Minister.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

As I said, I had a significant meeting with the outgoing chair-----

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

There is a regular interaction between the departmental officials and board members generally because the board reports to the Department. Have there been any exit discussions with them?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

No. To answer the Senator's second question, as I said in my opening statement, I have asked Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely to carry out an external review of governance within IFI. That, by definition, can and could include looking at the legislative provisions. That was not the difficulty here and I will not go into the long history, which others have already done in public and elsewhere. However, if there is a governance flaw that we see arising from that review, we will look at it.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I am only putting this to the Minister because we hear things second-hand but something that has been mentioned to me in passing is that the board did not feel it could act in a particular way because of legal threats that were issued against it. The threat was that if the board was to move in a particular way on the executive, the board members, as I understand it, would be sued. I can well see how people appointed to a State board, given the pittance they get and the time they put in, would gladly put their hands in their pockets and walk away. I am trying to determine if there is an issue here. That is why I had hoped the Department would have engaged with those who left the board. I hoped it would do so to gain a clearer understanding of the situation, while recognising that it is there to represent the shareholder, which is the State. This is not directed at the Minister but at the entirety of the Department.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

Part of the problem here is that there has been a lot of speculation and accusation. I am not accusing the Senator of doing that.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Not at all.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

As he suggested, I do not want to continue with that. I do not want to impugn the motives of anyone who may have resigned previously. As to what their motives or reasons for departing are, some may have good reasons, personal or otherwise, in their daily lives. I am not impugning members of the board which we have dissolved. That would only add to what has been the problem here, namely, a cauldron of speculation and accusation that has not been in the interests of inland fisheries but has been of a personal nature. Doubling down on that would not get any of us further.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats) | Oireachtas source

I will follow on from Senator Dooley's questions. Is conflict so intrinsic to the role of IFI, as an entity, that there will always be problems when it comes to its governance? For example, under the Inland Fisheries Act 2010, the functions of IFI are to promote, support, facilitate and advise the Minister on the conservation, protection and management of inland fisheries and to encourage and develop angling for salmon, trout, coarse fish and sea fish. On the one hand, IFI is meant to be protecting and conserving our fish stocks and resources while, on the other hand, its role is to promote angling. There is an intrinsic conflict between those two functions, particularly in light of the biodiversity and climate change crises we are facing as well as all those external pressures. The management of our inland fisheries will become increasingly difficult, especially when the body is expected to engage in conservation while promoting angling. Is that the issue? Will the review the Minister has called for get to the crux of the issue as to whether the legislation around inland fisheries is fit for purpose in light of the current environment?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I should declare an interest by mentioning that I was the Minister who introduced the legislation in the first place. IFI is a critical institution for protecting and benefiting the environment and anglers have a real interest in protecting the environment. I disagree with the characterisation that there is, on the one hand, an interest in protecting the environment and, on the other hand, we have those involved in angling. If anything, the two connect and combine. I fish and in my experience anglers have a real interest in the broader environment and in protecting it, so I do not see that as a conflict. I would also argue that in the structures-----

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats) | Oireachtas source

On that point, IFI has no remit when it comes to habitat protection so it is essentially just looking after the fish. If one arm of IFI is saying it wants to increase the number of fish and the other arm is saying it wants to encourage a reduction in the number of fish, then that is a difficult position in which to put the organisation. The staff do great work but that is a very difficult position to put them in.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I agree that we need to have what might be called an ecosystem approach. If one looks at any one element of the environment rather than the whole system, one will not get the best and optimal protection of the environment. This legislation is unusual compared with other legislation in that it gives the Oireachtas joint committee the power to appoint board members. Part of the reason for that was to recognise that there will be a diversity of interests on the board. It should have a variety of different perspectives and be broadened out. It is not just in my Department and it is not just down to me, as Minister, or whoever in this role, to make appointments. There is also the Ministers for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and Rural and Community Development. The board is appointed in a way that is quite unusual in that it has a wide variety of different parents in terms of who decides who is appointed to it. That reflects the diversity we need in how we develop and run inland fisheries.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats) | Oireachtas source

Does the Minister not think that is part of the problem?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I have no sense of that, particularly in the last year and a half. We need to scale up IFI, which needs to be bigger. Being larger, it can and should have a role in habitat protection. We are about to initiate a significant phase 2 of a land use review and IFI has a critical role in that. A review of land use has to look at what is happening in our rivers and apply a river basin management system approach to that. If I have a concern, it is that IFI needs additional resources. It was hard to deploy those in the last two years because there were clear difficulties between the board and management. It is hard to scale up an organisation when that is happening. IFI needs to be bigger, if anything, to deliver on the important job it has in protecting our environment.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats) | Oireachtas source

Does the Minister not think it should be separate? There was a missed opportunity when the review of the National Parks and Wildlife Service took place. There should have been an element of fisheries conservation incorporated into that review. The reality is that if someone rings up IFI and says they think there is an issue in a river, unless there are fish floating on the surface, IFI will not go and investigate the matter. IFI has to see dead fish and it does not take the habitat into account in its work because that is its remit. I wonder about the pressures that are facing our inland fisheries. IFI should have an angling component and there should be a promotion of tourism and all of that but I wonder whether it is right to have those two functions in the same entity and whether that sort of conflict is underpinning this whole problem.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

We could broaden it out. I have often considered that issue. Could the National Parks and Wildlife Service be made separate and could Inland Fisheries Ireland be integrated in some way, with reconstituted forms of the various arms of the State's environmental protection? That could be debated but I do not think it is the core of the problem here.

It is true what the Deputy said about there being a narrow focus on certain species in the ecosystem, but as she will know, salmonoid has a very good presence, which virtually all Irish rivers had until the recent deterioration of the environment. They are a good indicator of the overall health of the system. They will exist only where there are good, clean water systems and a broader management of the catchment that is conducive to a good environment. While I take the Deputy's point that it is perhaps a single focus, it is not a bad one, not just for angling reasons but because salmonoid is a good indicator of the health of our rivers and lakes.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for attending. Have the issues that gave rise to the differences at board level been resolved or are we still in a process of identifying their resolution? Are we clear on what the governance will be at this point? That was investigated in the past and I heard Senator Kyne say there was a problem for the board implementing it because it was not quorate to meet and discuss the issues. Are we clear that we have the governance model at this point or is that still a matter for further investigation by the two interim members? I wish to get an understanding of what issues remain to be resolved, in the Minister's view, and how we are going to get beyond this to a new position where we can appoint, in the normal manner, a board and have confidence there will be effective governance of the agency.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I met Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely yesterday in advance of this meeting and I was encouraged because they have hit the ground running. I have had a meeting of the board in situand a meeting with management, and there will be a further meeting later this week. In answering my questions, Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely said they had a sense that IFI was a professional functioning organisation, and while it has gone through a difficult period, that has not hindered its ability to carry out its tasks and complete the accounts and all the other measures we need to take. They were impressed with what they saw in an organisation that had been through a difficult time yet still had strong morale.

There remain a number of outstanding protected disclosures, being examined both by my Department and by Inland Fisheries Ireland. It was appropriate for some to be handled by the Department and others by the agency. We have given Inland Fisheries Ireland what they need to be processed as quickly as possible because those outstanding issues need to be resolved, and the same goes for our Department. The timelines for that governance review, as I said in my opening statement, runs to six months. I expect that during that time, this committee, along with me and my ministerial colleagues, will do the work in order that we will be able to replace the board quickly.

Senator Kyne asked why we should not just replace some of the members and not others. I felt strongly that in this instance, the best approach was to elect a new board and to use the mechanisms we have for that, including this committee. We can do that having had sight of the governance review and report from the two managers who have been appointed, Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely, who are of the highest standard and seem, as I said, to have hit the ground running.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister. What has changed subsequent to the appointment of Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely? The Minister stated the organisation has been run in a professional manner, but previously, numerous board members resigned their positions due to serious worries and issues they had raised over several months regarding the agency’s annual statement of control issued in March 2021. They went several months without satisfactory resolution. What has changed, with the appointment of Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely, to resolve the issues regarding the sign-off of the 2021 appropriation accounts?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

The previous board was not, as I said, quorate and there was not a functional relationship between management and the remaining board members. That led to an environment where the board could not carry out its statutory functions effectively.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

When concerns were raised, how were they addressed by the board in the context of the function of the Department and the Minister?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I apologise but I do not understand the question.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

When concerns and issues with governance were raised, arising from several matters, how were they dealt with?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I appointed a senior counsel to carry out a major investigation.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The Minister appointed a senior counsel in respect of the board. Why did he not appoint a senior counsel in respect of the CEO and senior management?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

There is a system for managing protected disclosures and it is important-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

We are not talking about protected disclosures but about issues with governance and financial appropriateness.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

We are here to discuss the removal of the board and we should not stray from that.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

As I said, in my understanding, a lot of the concerns and other accusations were submitted as protected disclosures and they had to be managed in a way that was appropriate and fair to all sides.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Once the board has been dissolved, therefore, there will be an external governance review of senior management and the board. Does the Minister consider that is too late in light of what has happened over recent months?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

No. I gave every opportunity, with the appointment of that senior counsel, for a review to be conducted, with the recommendations of that review taken with a view to examining whether the board could work its way through the difficulties. Earlier this year, however, it became abundantly clear that was not possible and that, in those circumstances, the provision of section 18 of the Act should be applied.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The current members of the board, however, who are senior, competent personnel, could see they were not getting a satisfactory resolution. The Minister believes changing the board will get a satisfactory resolution. Is that what he foresees happening here?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

The board had seen five resignations, including two chairpersons. To return to what Senator Kyne said, that is not usual or normal. On top of the media commentary on the issue, none of this is normal.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Did the Minister put any weight on the wider repercussions of issuing a no-fault dismissal for the current members of the board? There is significant concern these board members will be blacklisted or that there will be a whispering campaign regarding their professionalism at IFI.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I have not said one word in that vein to one person about any member of the board, whether outgoing or previous to that. There has been enough of that and it is better to take out some of that political commentary and ensure we return the institution to functioning effectively. I have no intention of in any way demeaning them or depicting them in a bad light.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

There is concern from some former board members regarding future appointments to other prospective boards. That has come to our attention. Is that something the Minister will ensure does not happen?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

There are no consequences, in my mind, for any member of the board. My officials are rightly indicating to me that any member could apply for reappointment to the board.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I might build on Deputy Whitmore's question, which was an interesting one, about the remit of Inland Fisheries Ireland with respect to habitat protection.

Deputy Whitmore rightly pointed out that, until the fish are floating in the river, we often do not know there is a problem. The Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, monitors rivers frequently and reports on the status of the rivers, I think. Is there a role for Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI, as an organisation and for the board, with respect to an increased role in habitat protection and restoration? Is there an opportunity now to examine that and enhance its role?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

My response is similar to what I said to Deputy Whitmore. It is when the fish are floating you often know you have a problem. It is hard to gauge for an average person. I keep coming back to the point that the angling community are probably some of the most passionate people about protecting our rivers and systems. It is a large community of people monitoring who we can turn to for help. Broadly, I would like to see Inland Fisheries Ireland strengthened, expanded and extended in its role. We literally just agreed in Cabinet this morning on the second phase of the land use review, which will require all hands on deck to ensure we understand what is happening in our land and waterways. I am all the more keen to have the new board appointed and for IFI to be involved in that. It has a central role.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

This committee has a role in appointing members of the board.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The Minister said he spoke to the interim chair who resigned in January. Why has he not spoken to the previous chair, who resigned last April?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

At that stage, I felt the best approach was to appoint a senior counsel to try to assess what could be done and to follow that approach. He wrote a very good report, in my opinion, which set out a path. Having lost a further three members and a chair, I thought it was appropriate to speak to the outgoing chair, having tried every other mechanism.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Will the Minister speak to the previous board members?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I would not rule it out. I am not going out of my way to. My focus is on having the new board appointed and getting the governance review done. I am not committing to meeting anyone. I do not want to set myself as the judge and jury and go back to speak to every person involved in this whole process. That is a matter for others.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The Minister said it is not normal for there to be five resignations from a board, which I agree with. It is not normal. It is unprecedented. It is hard to fathom why. The Minister seems to be putting the blame or stating that the board was obviously dysfunctional without seeking to find out why those board members resigned. There is a common denominator and it is not the board members.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I am not impugning anyone in that regard. I may have said earlier in my contribution that there were relationships not just within the board but between the board and management, clearly. There was a lot of public and political commentary. It is wider in terms of people with different views on what was happening. Me adding to that by weighing in and trying to act as an arbiter would not help and was not the right approach. It was better to appoint a senior counsel to do the review and, that not having worked, to apply the Act.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

What does the Minister mean by, "not having worked"?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

Three further resignations took place and the assessment of the outgoing chair was that they had not been able to deliver what Mr. Conleth Bradley's report suggested.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I would suggest the Minister is correct in the mind of some people in his Department that the Bradley report did not work, in that it did not find something to put on the board members to get rid of them. In my view, that is why this was initiated.

The Minister mentioned protected disclosures. I am not sure if there are protected disclosures or not. I made a disclosure, as did other Oireachtas Members, on 8 September. The Secretary General replied on 30 November stating that, following receipt of my communications, having regard to the Department's policy and guidelines under the Protected Disclosures Act, it was determined that my correspondence was not considered a protected disclosure by reason of it being made by a person other than a worker, as set out under the Protected Disclosures Act. However, an investigation would take place on the matters under the Department's protected disclosures policy, given that the content of my email and attachments of 8 September may be related to those matters, these will be furnished to the investigator. As far as I am concerned, the principal complaint is not a protected disclosure but is being investigated under the protected disclosure policy. In some ways, the Minister's Department is hiding behind that. Is the chief executive officer of Inland Fisheries Ireland being investigated as part of these complaints?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

It was a very long statement at the start. I must admit, in the middle of the process, I was being handed accusations, often in the Chamber, within the Oireachtas.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

The chief executive officer is not here to defend himself. I do not think it is appropriate-----

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I am happy to come back and discuss things with the chief executive officer.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

If I could finish, it might answer the question.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The Minister mentioned protected disclosures.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I felt that it was very sensitive. I must say, as Minister, I was conscious that you have to handle it in a professional, proper manner. In that instance, that was to hand it to the relevant officials in my Department who are designated to try to ascertain whether something is or is not a protected disclosure and how best to approach it. This was not normal correspondence. It was not normal in any way. It was highly sensitive, in my opinion. To answer the question about whether someone is being investigated or not and how you define protected disclosures or when complaints are raised, if investigated has a pejorative meaning, then I would be nervous of the word. In terms of whether investigations are going on into accusations that have been made, absolutely, but they are being done following the proper due process. That is important so that it is fair to all concerned.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I remind members that the naming of persons outside the House is specifically regulated by Standing Orders and by the rulings of the Chair. The general practice is that such a person should not be named or referred to so as to be identifiable, particularly where to do so would be an unreasonable invasion of privacy or where the reference could be in the nature of being a defamatory utterance under Standing Order 61.

Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for coming before the committee today. This has been an ongoing issue for some time. It is quite clear that the issue goes back to well before the Deputy's time as Minister. People have come to me, I do not know if you could call it both sides, but people with different views on what the problems are in Inland Fisheries Ireland. I have taken the approach that one must be objective about this. It is people's livelihoods and jobs. As the Minister said, due process must take place. I have looked for due process consistently and that everybody feels either heard or that there are no issues around contracts of employment, for instance. Does the Minister believe his Department has done everything according to good practice and due process?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I do. This has not been easy. Regarding the issues raised in the last year and a half or so, I am not sure they go back into the depths of time at Inland Fisheries Ireland. There are, no doubt, many issues. The particular difficulties arose in prominence, in my opinion, in the last two years or year and a half. On the difficulties between the board of management, they are not something ingrained with historic roots. They are more recent, from within the timeline during which they became apparent, unfortunately.

Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party) | Oireachtas source

That would mean they can be resolved and therefore we can only do what we can do now. There have been five resignations. Whatever the reasons for those, steps must be taken around the issue of reinstating a board of management.

Otherwise, we will have continuing problems. That is what the Minister is here to discuss today. We have a role in that and it is a continuing role.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator O'Reilly and call Senator Dooley to speak now, please.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I am trying to understand where we are trying to start a process to appoint a new board. I am conscious that at least in public, there does not seem to have been a resolution of the issues which led to the various differences. I presume that the senior counsel's report is available to Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely. Are Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely charged with the full powers and responsibility, powers and functions which the board would have had? From our committee's perspective, before we throw - and I do not mean this in a pejorative way - more people into a new board, is there an expectation that there will be some outcome or conclusion to the efforts of Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely? Is the Minister expecting a report from them with a set of actions that will have to be taken or is he expecting some deliberations from them which would set the organisation on a course towards a resolution before we appoint a new board?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

There are immediate statutory obligations, as in respect of the accounts mentioned by the Senator earlier on. But, as I have said, there are two primary issues I have asked them to look at as a priority. One is to ensure that all protected disclosures in hand would be progressed and, second, that the review of the governance would be concluded. I expect that that would be done within a six-month period, which would inform this committee and myself as Minister that we would have confidence in reappointing a new board and have an organisation that is in rude good health.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I am still trying to understand the resolution here because clearly there are problems that have led us to the situation we are in. Will it be a matter for the new board to act on the report that is created or developed by Mr. Barry or Mr. Neely, or is the expectation that they are being charged from the shareholder to resolve the problems before a new board is appointed?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

Our Department is reviewing some of the protected disclosures and, as I said, IFI is reviewing others. They each have been headed up to manage that and our Department has mechanisms for doing that. We have direct responsibility and will conclude that work.

With respect to governance, we also have a role. If Mr. Barry or Mr. Neely come back to me, having conducted that report and see that changes or other mechanisms need to be looked at again, we would have a role there to ensure that the resources, in whatever form, statutory, financial or others, and the organisation are in place to accept any recommendations or to take actions coming out of that. The Department and I have a role but primarily it is for Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely to fulfil the statutory functions and to deliver on those two priorities as well.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I will reiterate the point I made at the outset, which was in respect of the process of operation, to put it like that. When one looks at this in the context of the board of a private company - which it is not - one would certainly not expect any half-decent private company to be embroiled in a situation like this where people would be retiring or resigning from a board in the way that this has happened.

Again, I ask that the Department at least look at the legislation and at the powers that are available to the board. I cannot draw any parallel that I know of any half decent-sized company ever having to go through a process like this now, but there may be examples.

Because of the way the process has gone and the situation we find ourselves in; is that a weakness in the legislation where there is some lacuna there which has allowed this to happen?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I will look at that to see but I do not believe it is.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Okay.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I would not rule that out at this stage.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I am sure that would have been part of the conversation the Minister would have had with the previous chairperson, if she had identified that she was lacking some legislative backing, or whatever.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

No one has mentioned that to me.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Okay. I thank the Minister for his time. We must recognise that the Minister is walking a fairly tight rope here, in what he can and cannot say, recognising his role and the rights of all stakeholders. I thank the Minister for being as open and as frank as he has been.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Dooley and call Senator Kyne to speak now, please.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me to make a further contribution. Does the Minister intend to publish the findings of the departmental report or investigation and will Mr. Neely and Mr. Barry be publishing their findings?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I expect to do so, yes.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Is there no timescale in respect of either of those?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

We indicated six months, which is the sort of timescale I believe is reasonable.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

And again, what is the position in respect of the Department’s investigation?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

It has its statutory timelines for proper disclosures for managing that but, again, while it is appropriate for Ministers to follow due process in that and not to start trying to manage it themselves, my message to them is that I would give them the same direction as I have given to Mr. Neely and Mr. Barry, which is that they should proceed with as much haste as possible.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Will they be making themselves available to discuss those reports subsequently?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I presume, but one has to be careful here in respect of how protected disclosures are done, which is to ensure that it is done under proper due process.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

That is the case if it is a protected disclosure, I am advised that it is not but that it has been looked at under the protected disclosures process.

The crux of the issue here is that the Minister has made the decision, as is his right under section 18, to discharge the duties of the remaining board members. This was presumably done on the advice of officials next to the Minister, and I am sure that of his Secretary General, but the Minister has made no attempt to discuss with the board members, other than with the interim chair, why it is that they happened to resign. What issues did they have? Did they have issues with the direction of management and with certain individuals within management within Inland Fisheries Ireland?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

As I have said, part of the problem is that there has been a great deal of political discussion on this, and it is a very significant issue, together with media commentary. I have no problem with the media commentary but I am not too sure that my adding a further political dimension in the nature of who is at fault, to blame or who said what to whom, would actually benefit Inland Fisheries Ireland or indeed any of the individuals concerned.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

None of this has benefited Inland Fisheries Ireland with respect to the organisation but there are resignations because of the way things are being done within its organisation. That is of concern to me. The board is gone-----

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I apologise for interrupting Senator Kyne but we are making no suggestion of wrongdoing by management.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

No, absolutely.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

Can I ask Senator Kyne to conclude shortly, as Deputy Dillon wishes to contribute and we only have a few minutes left? I ask him to be brief, please.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The issue here is that the board has been dissolved but the individuals and management within Inland Fisheries Ireland, who have a very close working relationship, as they must, with the Minister’s departmental officials, are all there. Indeed, the Minister’s Department is investigating allegations in respect of Inland Fisheries Ireland even though it has a very close relationship with it. These are my concerns in this. The easiest way out of this was to have a fully independent senior counsel to investigate the whole issue, or to have appointed members to the board to allow them to carry out their duties and the investigations they were pursuing and that they would have acted within their legislative remit.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I had appointed a senior counsel-----

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

This was for the board and not for the management.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

The senior counsel was looking at the whole operation-----

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

No, not-----

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

Assumptions are being made or accusations, in the sense of some of the ways in which this is being presented, of a relationship within the Department, the management or others. There is due process and one cannot assume that just because someone says something-----

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I served within that Department and I know the close relationship. Of course there has to be one because it is a very small part of the Department.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

The assumption that because an accusation is made of someone in management, let us say, that it is by definition, correct-----

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

There have been multiple accusations.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

It does not matter if there have been multiple or single. One cannot just accept what one hears on the vine as being gospel and that we will act on it.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

People have been suspended from the Minister’s organisation on foot of anonymous letters from Inland Fisheries Ireland.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

My apologies for interrupting Senator Kyne but Deputy Dillon wishes to contribute now, please, and we have very limited time. I call Deputy Dillon now.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Can the Minister tell me how many protected disclosures are being dealt with by IFI and how many protected disclosures is the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications dealing with?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

Such is the protection of protected disclosures; I do not have the exact details but there is a reasonable number in each case.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Is it in double or single digits?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I would expect it to be less than double digits but in the high single figures.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

How advanced are the investigations to date?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I do not get directly involved in that, for good reason, which is that when the results or recommendations come from it, I am not tainting the process by having been in the midst of it.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

It is important because, following the investigations, Mr. Barry and Mr. Neely will want to have a clear understanding, when they are acting as the board, that they have all the facts and information.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I asked them that question yesterday and they said they were impressed that they had received a number of reports from outside agencies, including within their own protected disclosure process, that provided them with some of the details they need. I have every confidence in them. They are both former county managers and held in the highest regard. They have the skills to try to assess an organisation like this on how to manage that. That is why we appointed them.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Is there a timeline in respect of the protected disclosures?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I would imagine it is a similar timeline. We will have to resolve this within the next number of months .

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

On the sign-off of the 2021 appropriation accounts, I presume all protected disclosures will be fully closed out before the accounts are signed off. Is that the expectation?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I will have to check whether legally the accounts can be signed off without that. Unless one relates to the other and there is a direct accusation regarding the finances or the accounts-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

How concerned is the Minister that to date, the accounts have not been signed off?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I am concerned. It is one of the reasons, when the board was not functioning, we decided to act in the manner in which we did.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

It did not function on the basis that there were unsatisfactory responses to a number of issues arising from the internal standard of control issued to the Comptroller and Auditor General. On the back of that, concerns were raised by the board. Is that the Minister's assessment?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

My assessment is that there were a lot of personal accusations flying in many different directions, which was impeding the ability of the board to operate and function effectively with management.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister and his official for attending today and for engaging with the committee.