Mr. Neil McDonnell:

I absolutely get the point about membership made by Mr. Talbot. The concern we have sprang up in particular during the pandemic when the work safety protocols were being developed and we were not there. They were not the right size for small businesses and I had to write to the Minister at the time about this. Secondly, I absolutely acknowledge Mr. Talbot's point that, nominally, pay is not discussed. The reason we have Ms Elaine Dunne here today on behalf of the childcare sector is that one of the first outputs of LEEF was an early years committee, which produced a joint labour committee JLC. Every effort was made to exclude Ms Dunne from that, despite the fact she represents more than 80% of employers in the sector. While nominally it is a non-statutory body that does not engage with these issues, in reality it has a very significant bearing on how things happen.