Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I would like to be associated with those remarks. Both services save people's lives every day. As part of that, many of their staff must see horrific scenes that they must bring home with them at night. I am aware of an incident in my constituency. The responders, who included ambulance service staff, are still dealing with what they saw that day. We are conscious of the risks the services' staff took and of the commitment they showed during the Covid pandemic, although not exclusively at that time. We are also conscious of the challenges they face. Verbal abuse and attacks on staff were touched on this morning. All of that is unacceptable.

I may sum up some of the things we are hearing this morning. A lot of the issues regarding numbers and so on can be very technical and people tend to switch off when they hear such big numbers.

We heard that it is taking much longer for ambulances to arrive. There is a general acceptance in this regard, and that is what we are picking up. The matter has been raised at previous meetings. I remember raising the issue - this is unprecedented as far as I am concerned - of 11 ambulances parked outside Tallaght University Hospital at one stage in November. The following week, there were six ambulances outside the Mater Hospital. Again, that was unprecedented. There were also issues in the context of turnaround times. We are being told it is taking longer for ambulances to arrive. There are not enough ambulances and not enough staff. There are not enough people in training, even though that training was oversubscribed. There is probably not enough space in the existing training centres. We are hearing that demand is growing. The witnesses gave us the figures in that regard, which I will go into again. It is worrying that Dublin Fire Brigade has had to request support from the National Ambulance Service on 63 occasions. This just goes to show the challenges the organisations involved are facing.

Recruitment is oversubscribed. We got the figures on the numbers of people who are leaving the service. There was a net gain this year with regard to the people coming into the service. The challenge is that we need approximately 5,000 people in the next eight years. We really need 600 or more people to come into the system every year. The system is not capable of taking that number. We heard that a new centre has opened in Cork, and there is a possible fifth centre. The system is crumbling despite all the efforts of the staff. I should have mentioned that fact that staff are being asked to work longer in many cases and that is also having an impact. We accept the huge commitment they have shown. We see something really special in the figures from Dublin Fire Brigade in the context of loyalty and staff not leaving. There is something special there. Dublin Fire Brigade should try to hold on to that as it expands.

How do we square the circle regarding the figures? How do we jump from relatively small figures? They are not going by tradition but the demand is there. How do we expand this service over those years? I hear what the witnesses are saying that the Cork situation is ongoing and a work in progress. When do we expect to see that? The witnesses might also touch on the ministerial task force trying to deal with this stuff. It had its first meeting yesterday, which was useful. How often will it meet? Will that deal with the problem of the elephant in the room and all the other issues we are discussing?

I know there are many conclusions. However, I want to put a question to both groups. How do we deal with these big challenges? How are we going to up those numbers? We heard the back and forth in respect of those issues. The other matter no one has touched on is that in order to go into these services, people need to be fit, strong and of sound mind. There are probably other criteria. People need to have the wherewithal to deal with stressful situations and so on. That all comes with the training. I could take a course tomorrow but it does not necessarily mean it would suit me.

The other issue our guests might touch on is whether the age profile is going down in both services. I hope it is. I have two questions for them. How do we square the circle with regard to the challenges they mentioned? What can we, as a committee, do?