Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Regarding the proposed CHOD, we could go on forever on this point but I have been clear on it. The matter went for legal opinion within the existing legislative framework, in terms of the chain of command essentially. It is time to get off the fence on this issue now, not that I was ever on it. The entire system must make decisions on this matter. Again, this comes in the context of the modernisation of the Defence Forces. I will be going back to the Government in this regard. There is further work to be done on this with my officials and with the military management.

This aspect goes back to 2016. A project team worked on this proposal and it spoke to people in like-minded countries in similar situations throughout Europe. It is interesting how our chain of command evolved from the 1920s in the context of the chain of command and structures we have now. I have clear views on this issue and I am not going to hang around. I will be going back to the Government, but I must also acknowledge that once we make the macro decision on what we want, there will also be a lot of detailed work required beneath that level to give effect to it. We must make a decision on this matter. We must give a lead and say this is where we are going in respect of the structure of our Defence Forces to create unity of purpose and to have a proper chain of command.

Turning to the organisation of working time directive, again I have been told I will be receiving a final management position. It will be submitted to me once the various talk processes that have been under way for some time conclude. The Secretary General and I have agreed this must happen. In fairness, what was said about what people feel in this regard was said in good faith. We must stop using the narrative of the minimum wage for the Defence Forces. It does not apply anymore. I take the Deputy's point that as long as we do not organise something like the organisation of working time directive, these things will get said. The rates of pay are as I have outlined and they have improved significantly. We must create a new narrative around working in the Defence Forces. It must be one that shows it is possible to go in from school at €36,000 or €40,000 after 18 months, or at €46,000 at graduate entry level. These are the new realities. We must change the dial a bit, and the next part of this is the organisation of working time directive. This is to ensure we do not get anecdotes or people saying they are doing 80 hours a week or whatever. We are putting pressure on to get the outcome of whatever due diligence has been going on.

I understand that those on the management side have to organise this and organise their people.

I understand that the majority of operations that go on in the Defence Forces at present are within the working time directive. When I was Minister for Health, everybody said the working time directive could not be implemented in the health service and the world would collapse. That is what everybody said. It did not collapse and we got it organised. The same has to happen here. We just have to move on it and we will. That covers most of what the Deputy raised.