Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that and we will take up the offer. The prison population remains overwhelmingly male. We have a male to female prisoner ratio of 30:1. The number of female prisoners was as low as 66 in 2008 but in recent years the number has generally ranged between 100 and 120 so the Deputy is right to raise the issue of gender.

I will state some other figures that may be of interest to the committee when discussing penal reform. The average cost of an available staffed prison space in 2021 was €80,335 while the average cost of a probation placement in 2020 was around €5,712. On prison capacity, and I do not mean to be disagreeable when I say this, I believe we must have reform and capacity, and I have had a robust conversation about this in recent days.

I agree with Deputy Kenny in that I do not think we want to be a country that sees increased incarceration. That is not the policy direction of the Department nor is it mine. There is a small number of areas of serious crime where I do believe longer prison sentences, and the legislative basis for such, is required and I am very clear on that. I refer to assaults, sexual crimes, gender-based crimes and crimes against children. There are areas where society wants to know that the Judiciary has at its disposal more robust sentencing. The overall policy direction is not to increase the incarceration rate in Ireland. I am very convinced of this fact, even allowing for penal reform.

On that point I made about not seeking overall increased incarceration rates, I do think with the huge growth in population, and the point on humanitarian conditions in prison, there is an argument for some prison capacity. My genuine view is that we need both approaches. We will very shortly have some extra prison capacity with a wing in Limerick Prison, which I recall from memory will give about 90 additional places, and the new women's prison in Limerick. There is the possibility of doing more in other places and I know that Cloverhill Prison has an idea about an additional wing.

The Deputy is correct. Some of our prisons are significantly overcrowded so there is the humanitarian piece around having modern, safe prisons and there is the population piece. We need penal reform but there is some additional capacity required. I have asked the Department of Justice to draw up a capacity plan that answers the question as to what we expect the prison population to be in our country in the future while taking into consideration population growth and penal reform, and then what additional capacity we would need to get us to that point. As the Deputy will know from his meeting with the director general, most of our prisons are meant to operate at a capacity of 90% or less and many of them are over that capacity.