Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Fortunately, I cannot because it is an area I am truthfully passionate about, as, I must acknowledge, is the Minister of State, Deputy Browne. Long story short, it is my intention, while I hold these two Departments, to have a prison and education task force established. I have spoken to the director general of the Prison Service. It simply makes sense. Pretty much all the agencies involved are under my remit in one of either of the Departments. We want to involve the Department of Education and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. I do not in any way wish to explain this to Deputy Ó Ríordáin because he knows it inside and out, but there is an issue about prisoner education and also an issue about the kids of prisoners and how to break the cycle. There is a very good project that I encountered virtually during Covid in Dillon's Cross, in Cork. That is an exceptional project, and we talk about it as an exceptional project because what they are doing there works. I want to know why we do not have more Dillon's Crosses, whereby not only do you look after the prisoner education, which is very important, but you also ask how we make sure the cycle of potential deprivation is broken for those whose mum or dad is in prison. There is good work going on on that. We will convene a prison education task force.

Deputy Kenny is right that that will involve issues around post-release. One of the key concerns I hear from educationalists and people in the ETBs - and there are some passionate and very good people working in prison education - is that at the end of a prison sentence somebody who has not completed a programme or has not yet completed training then re-emerges into society and - "falls off the wagon" might be a dismissive phrase, and I do not mean that in a flippant way, but often the completion of the education journey becomes complex. We need to look at how we can make sure that that transition is much smoother. There are some ideas in that regard. SOLAS, the ETBs, my Department at Secretary General level, the director general of the Prison Service, the Secretary General in the Department of Justice, the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, and I genuinely want to do a good piece of work. There was a very good piece of work done, as the committee will know, last year on mental health under the mental health task force and my colleague, the Minister, Deputy McEntee. We will look at replicating that. I am very happy to keep the committee briefed or to come before it, whatever works best in that regard.

My simple way of looking at the issue of penal reform is that there are some people in prison I think we would all prefer were not in prison. We would prefer they had been diverted elsewhere, be it mental health or other services. They may be people who have committed low-end offences, people from disadvantaged communities, people who, quite frankly, need societal help to break a very difficult cycle. There are also some people who are in prison and I think society would think they should have got longer sentences. I know that sentences are a matter for the Judiciary, and I respect that fact, but we are, let us be honest, all of us would be in favour of passing legislation in the House that will see increased maximum sentences for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. There are therefore some areas where the Oireachtas, I believe, will this year expressly pass legislation that gives a view on the seriousness of some crimes and the wish for longer sentences to be available and considered by the Judiciary. When I talk about this I do not want to talk about it without acknowledging that. There are some areas of very serious crime, including assault causing harm, where I believe longer maximum sentences than are currently available should be available to the Judiciary. Some of that is in our zero-tolerance plan.

Separate and distinct from that, there is absolutely no doubt but that a big piece of work needs to be done on the whole area of penal reform. I am very committed to that. As Deputy Ó Ríordáin and the committee will know, we published the Review of Policy Options for Prison and Penal Reform 2022-2024. That tries to find a balance between ensuring that people who commit serious crimes receive punishment and a period of incarceration that is proportionate to that crime, and acknowledging that sometimes community-based sanctions can be more appropriate in diverting offenders from future criminal activity and breaking the cycle. As part of that review, there are priority actions that look at developing and expanding the range of community-based sanctions, including alternatives to imprisonment. As part of that, there is a commitment to build on the joint Prison Service and Probation Service strategy. I have had a couple of conversations already with colleagues in the Department about making it easier for a District Court judge or others in the Judiciary to have access at a quicker pace to things like training and apprenticeships particularly when they see a young person coming before them, where they want to try to make a positive impact on that person's life and change the course of his or her life. I am fully committed to penal reform, to alternatives to prison for low-end offences, particularly among young people, and to trying to tackle things like addiction.

I wish to make a very separate and distinct point about some serious crime in this country. I want to see more people reported, more people prosecuted and more people serving longer sentences.

Finally, I recently had an excellent meeting with the Inspector of Prisons, Mr. Mark Kelly. I am sure we would all acknowledge that he is a very qualified individual in terms of his background in human rights. He has just completed a very expansive whole prison inspection. I know that he is eager to do more and his office is very busy. I am eager to support him to do more. I am also open to expanding his role as we start to consider some of the legislative moves we will consider as part of the Commission on Future of Policing in Ireland and other things that fall from that. The education in prison task force will be the big piece of work, where I think we can begin to teach through a lot of this and I very much welcome engagement from colleagues.