Barry Ward (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I will say at the outset that I am not a standard bearer for the alcohol industry. Like Professor Murray, I have some professional experience as a barrister seeing the effects of alcohol on people's behaviour. It can lead to violence, domestic violence, public disorder and then other crimes that are a knock-on from that. I appreciate what all the witnesses have said about the massive danger that alcohol poses to us socially and the damage it causes. I am particularly struck by the statistics from the Institute of Public Health on the direct correlation between the availability of alcohol and the effects that it has. Is that an absolute? Other members have spoken about the example of Europe and I lived in France for a number of years where there is not the same level of public drunkenness in Paris or in Rome. In fact, the levels of alcoholism between France and Italy, despite the fact that they have similar levels of consumption, differ widely. I think it may be due to the better family supports that exist in Italian culture over those in French culture. As one looks at each example, including Ireland, there are different pressures at different points in system. I wonder if we can say with absolute certainty that access to alcohol is in direct correlation to the abuse of alcohol. Have we not in this country consistently, over generations, treated people like children when it comes to alcohol? We have told them that they must stop drinking at a certain time, they must go home at a certain time, they must do this and they must do that. Has that contributed to the culture of alcohol here that has been referred to? Therefore, would we not be better off to treat people like grown-ups and let them behave responsibly? The public health submission was very much about creating greater responsibility for those who vend alcohol to people who are very drunk, for example. Should there be consequences in that case? I have no difficulty with that. When I was growing up, everybody had to leave the pub at half eleven. That is the kind of pressure Ms Graham referred to. On Nitelinks and late night buses everybody leaves at the same time. That, in itself, creates a pressure.

That in itself creates a pressure so I wonder about that submission. If we were to stagger those hours or allow venues, for example, to open all night if they wanted to, would that not dissipate the pressure over the course of an evening and put the responsibility on individual punters to make the decision as to when they go home? I agree with the suggestion here that if we did that and said everybody can open for as long as they want, they would not be all open until 5 o'clock in the morning. That has been the experience in rural Ireland where perhaps the regulation of closing time might not be as rigid as it is in the city. If there are two or three villages with a pub where they can get away with it, they will not all stay open late. One will do it and the other two will not. If we have a less rigid regime, is it not the case that this will allow a kind of tapering effect of people over time? I agree absolutely we should be able to go out and enjoy ourselves without alcohol. In fact, not very far from here is a café near Stephen's Green which is open 24 hours but does not serve alcohol and it is busy late into the night particularly with Muslims who do not drink. It is a very positive environment up there and that could be replicated in many places.

I wonder about the manner in which we have treated people in relation to alcohol and I do not have any difficult with the suggestion that there should be a levy on the industry. The notion of an overarching State body with responsibility for alcohol safety, or whatever way we want to term it, is a very good idea. A raw statistic that says more pubs or longer hours equals greater abuse of alcohol is not necessarily at the heart of this. Although that may be true, I wonder if the nuance is actually different and what we actually need to address is a fundamental cultural issue that can be addressed in different ways other than shutting down an economy. I apologise, I did not intend to speak this long. The logical conclusion of what the witnesses are saying could cause greater risks. It would presumably be desirable for many of them to take alcohol out of the system altogether. I know that is not possible - we all know that is not possible - but if we were to close pubs at 10 o'clock for example, does that not create other knock-on problems while fulfilling the equation that less alcohol creates less abuse? My concern is that since lockdown in this country we have increasingly seen a shutdown of all economic activity after a certain hour of the evening and no facilities available to anyone after 9 o'clock at night in restaurants or whatever that might be and that is really sad. I would be delighted for the witnesses to tell me why I am wrong because I suspect there is something I do not see but that is why I want to hear their views on this.