Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE) | Oireachtas source

I will make one other point about that. The suggestion made earlier, which is often made in this debate, is that this is really about the underfunding of pension schemes. It seems to me that is a conflation of two issues. Sometimes there may be an overlap of those two issues. I understand this can arise in situations where there is no question of underfunding of pension schemes whatsoever. Deputy Bríd Smith gave her own experience as a shop steward of an instance in which that happened. Indeed, underfunding can be provoked by changes that the employer proposes to make to reduce their own contributions. This can involve creating a crisis to justify such a reduction. Can Mr. Collins expand a little on that?