Mr. Martin Docherty-Hughes:

I will work my way back. Senator McDowell talked about the idea that there would not be a referendum within 20 years. I might be the fly in the ointment, just to be that person. If someone had said to me in 2007 that the SNP would form a government – a minority government – in the Scottish Parliament I would have found that difficult, but we did that. Then, in a parliament that was set up to be fundamentally proportional, to enable no one party to get an overall majority, in the following election in 2010 or 2011, we got a majority. That pushed forward the issue of a referendum and the St. Andrews Agreement in 2012, leading up to the referendum. I have been through three general elections since 2015. If someone had said to me in 2015 we would have another referendum in the next year I would have told them they were talking nonsense. Brexit changed everything. It might work back to some of the issues that Mr. McCord raised. It is comparing apples with oranges: they are both fruit but they are very different scenarios. Scotland has its own ancient historic legal system, a separate education system and a whole range of differences even around the union of the Crowns. The monarchy in Scotland is seen in a very different fashion than across the rest of the UK. It goes back to the issue which changed a lot of minds in Scotland, notably in constituencies like mine, which in some ways will mirror constituencies in Northern Ireland, both unionist and nationalist-republican, namely that of class. It is the issue of poverty, inequality and disengagement by the State. It is a challenge on all political parties to rise to the issues that people face on an everyday level. That was also part of the process during the last independence referendum for us. It was about the opportunities, at least from my position, of what independence within the European Union – that goes back to Brexit again – could offer in terms of getting rid of inequality and ensuring there is a more sustainable future that is carbon neutral etc. These are real tangible issues for working class communities. I wanted to link that up.

I think Senator Curry spoke about big data and differing systems of registration and also political moneys. You not only have two systems between the Republic and Northern Ireland but Northern Ireland is also different with regard to the rest of the UK. There were questions during the Brexit referendum about the leave campaign raising money through Northern Ireland because of its different electoral registration and financial campaign fundraising, notably using something called a Scottish limited partnership which is in the onus of the Westminster Parliament. That created a lot of issues there as well. It is a very good question that politicians here will need to consider.

Senator Black asked whether the Irish Government needs to come up with a proposal on a poll or referendum on reunification. The onus is also on the Government of the United Kingdom because if the UK does not think that the unionist community of Northern Ireland is worth investing that time in then that is another conundrum for the unionist community. It is problematic. I think Mr. McCord articulated that. There will be people in Scotland who recognise that, who come from similar backgrounds, who vote for me but who also vote for independence who recognise the complexity of their brothers and sisters in Northern Ireland. The onus is not only on the Government here in Dublin but also on the UK Government to say that it has an investment in the people of Northern Ireland if they want to make that proposition. As my colleague, Mr. Thompson, mentioned, it did not do that in 2014. At least from my perspective, in the two years leading up to the 2014 referendum, it really failed to deliver what the union could be. It came out with things like it would mean leaving the EU and Scotland’s economy would be in tatters. Well, here we are; I have seen four prime ministers, inflation in the UK is going through the roof and we are no longer in the EU. Those are big issues that those here will need to face. Scotland cannot replicate what Ireland will need to replicate. It will need to bring about its own position.

Senator Wall asked about creating engagement. The Scottish Government came up with a White Paper, as Mr. Thompson mentioned, that enabled really deep conversations around inequality, access to support and what it meant to have an independent state which was far more accountable and also one where it was possible to question the state in a far more accountable fashion. It is for both the UK and Irish Governments to come up with propositions and leadership that enables civic Ireland, and I mean the whole island of Ireland, to have an engagement and deliberation that is away from politicians, in the pub, in the Orange Hall or in the Hibernians. That needs to be a deliberation sometimes away from us as politicians. We might not like the answers but at the end of the day it is the citizens of what those here might hope is a future Ireland making that decision. It is the exact same for me. I face that challenge every time we have a debate about independence in Scotland. I feel very fortunate. I come from a constituency which mirrors many communities in Northern Ireland in terms of class. They are working class communities. It is seen as a very left-of-centre constituency. We had that deliberation. We are not stupid. We are working class. We have a brain. We are articulate, determined and we are resilient.

If you diminish that, and here I am thinking of some of the issues Mr. McCord noted, you diminish the idea of what you think the proposition should be. The people, both in the Republic and in the North, would probably reject it if you did not include them and allow them to take leadership of it. That is a challenge to all politicians and government structures.