Mr. Bertie Ahern:

That is a fair debate to have. There are a number of elements to what the Senator said. We are trying to involve everybody in the debate. Whenever I get a chance, I try to ask and persuade people from the unionist and loyalist traditions, even though I have no power, to participate in what they see as a new or agreed Ireland or find out why they are totally against it. They might want to tell us why they think it is poppycock.

That would be fair enough but it is to try to engage in the debate. However, if they see that when you do not agree with the line, you are in trouble - and I referred earlier to the recent conference - people are entitled to have their view because otherwise, it will work against the purpose. I am aware it is not the organisers but people have to work very hard to try to get others to participate in the debate without fear or favour and to not intimidate them out of it. That requires a bit of handling.

On the idea of a forum, I would far prefer a forum of elected representatives. I would give a gold medal to everyone who has served in a citizens' assembly. Fair play to them and I am not saying anything against them. If, however, the committee is asking me whether a citizens' assembly is the way that we bring together the whole of the work that is going on, then I am not so sure. That decision is not for now.

I am not a great lover of citizens' assemblies anyway about any issue. I do not like the idea of 100 people gathering and getting papers and so on. If I was on it and I could influence it then I might have a different view but when I am outside of it and if I do not see my view reflected then I am upset about it. It is just how it goes. I was at a recent assembly and when I gave an alternative view on the mayoralty issue, the chairman - who happens to be a good friend of mine, was the Dublin manager of the team that took six all-Ireland medals and is a man I hold in high regard - said to me that we were not at the assembly to listen to alternative views. He said that they had been told in the terms of reference that the view was we are to have a lord mayor and that we were only there to discuss the structure. I asked myself what was I doing there anyway. I was coming with an alternative view but they did not want it at all because they just did not think it was a good idea. If terms of reference are framed in a way that the decision has to be almost one way, then I do not like it. As for any debate on an issue as important as the future of our island, the future of our country and how we are going to operate for the next 100 years, I would far prefer it to be taken by people who are elected to the chambers, rather than people whose names were tossed into a computer and pulled out like the lotto numbers. That is not to take anything away from them but that is my view.