Mr. Bertie Ahern:

We were making good progress and in fairness the parties were making good progress on the institutional changes. For the record, I feel the institutions should be worked very actively. I do not want to say more actively or criticise what is happening but we went through a long period where the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference did not meet at all. There were maybe one or two meetings. The whole idea was the British Prime Minister was to turn up to those and I do not think Boris Johnson ever went to the one or two that were held. He did not attend at all and the idea was the British Prime Minister would be there. The British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference is vitally important. Sometimes I hear people saying we need a new model so we can meet, as the British are no longer in Europe. We do not need a new model; all we need to do is implement the model we have, which is the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. It should be meeting regularly. It does not have to meet at Prime Minister-Taoiseach level. It could be four meetings a year: one quarter with industry people, one quarter with education and so on.

Our civil servants are not meeting and at one time they tended to meet every week. They used to meet at various committees in Europe. As the Cathaoirleach knows, there was huge close contact between our public servants and it is gone. It is the same with North-South bodies. I finally agreed with David Trimble what the North-South bodies were going to be. We always had a view they would be incremental and we did not have to write down exactly where we were going to have co-operation. The co-operation on cancer services works very well. I do not think that was ever written down, so there are lots of things you can do that you do not have to write down. It should be more active and if we get the institutions up, we need to be looking at other areas and new areas. As for the idea that 25 years ago we said these were the areas and 25 years later we are still saying these are the areas, I am sure the Deputy could think of 20 areas where we should be having North-South co-operation. It is vital to do.

The Deputy is right about where I felt things would have developed. I honestly thought we would have far greater integration of various organisations working closely together and making far more progress together. There are some people. Our farmers are great at North-South work. The only time the Rev. Ian Paisley used to ring me when I was Taoiseach was when it was something to do with agriculture. Then he would abuse me about something else. Anyway, our farmers have an incredible way of working together and that should be across many other areas.

On education, integrated education is probably working. I met a former principal of a Presbyterian school in Belfast and he told they were not changing their charter or any of their long-held views and rules but then he went on to tell me a third of their pupils were Catholic, so they are coming into the schools. They are not going to say it is an integrated education but they are now coming into the schools. That is a slow process but you have to keep on driving. I thought things like that would work far better.

The area I am most disappointed by is around the employment and training bodies. It is the reason I wanted Invest Northern Ireland and IDA Ireland to work together. I did the early negotiations with Intel and a lot of the companies way back. On all the trips and trade missions I went to, and I am sure it was the same for the Cathaoirleach or anyone else, none of the companies ever asked were Belfast and Dublin separate or were Derry and Buncrana separate. They saw us as a unit. We would never go in, even in the worst, early days, and say we are not going to help that Northern Ireland crowd. That never happened. I never saw an official or Minister doing that. I had hoped we would have seen far more investment into poorer areas and into ones that did not feel they had benefited. That is something we still need to do. I am aware there are some initiatives now, there is some progress and efforts are being made but you must get the person on Sandy Row and on the Falls Road to see this is really good for me, that this is progress for me and that I have a better chance of a job.

Unfortunately, people in loyalist areas, as distinct from nationalist areas, think that they did not get the benefits from it. If that is case, then it is our job to prove to them that there are benefits. Until we do that, people will be linking themselves to paramilitary groups and the wrong kind of society. I have seen it in my own constituency down the years and I have seen how it can change. For example in the International Financial Services Centre today, there are children of people who at one stage came in as cleaners and doormen, and are now working as economists. It can change. The challenge for us is to make people in Northern Ireland see that. That means enabling reconciliation and being positive in the message. It means people of all political persuasions must hold out the hand of friendship to the other side to help them. If you only hand it out to those on your own side, it does not work.