Ms Gillian Harford:

Hopefully this will be helpful on the question about Norway. Norway moved very early on the idea of quotas for companies listed on its stock exchange. If they did not meet the quotas, they were delisted, which had implications for the company. The hope was that it would increase the number of women on boards but also increase the number of women in executive positions. The outcome was that it increased the number of women on individual boards but it reduced the number of board positions overall because so many companies delisted as they knew they were not going to be able to meet the quota. Women were also plucked out of executive positions and moved onto board positions, and maybe took three or four positions to try to help companies fill the quota. Instead of actually improving the pipeline, it disimproved it. Norway is now looking at ways it can increase the number of women in executive posts and it is struggling because companies focused on quotas rather than thinking about how they would build the pipeline themselves. That is the situation that has occurred. We have seen the same replicated in some other European countries as well. It has not done what was expected in respect of the general uplift and that is why we talk about it as a ceiling, rather than a floor, but it is all architecture at the end of the day.

I identify with the Deputy's other question, having reared two children myself while holding down a career. It is something organisations and women in organisations still struggle with. We are seeing a greater appetite among men to have a greater share in parental responsibilities. Organisations are stepping up in their policies around family leave, recognising that employees have different needs at different stages in their lives. We see an opportunity there and perhaps this committee could consider how we look at this in a more integrated way. We should look at where policy can help organisations but also where organisations can help policy. It is not just a case of looking at childcare over here, paternity leave over here and maternity leave over here. It is about looking at life in the round and working out where policymakers and business can work together. Organisations are stepping in, being creative and trying to think in a more modern way, even if that means they are a step ahead of the legislation. We need to see more of that.

Instead of thinking about the role of a father, mother or parent, we should be thinking about what our children need. We need to think about birth leave as opposed to maternity leave, the needs of immediately-born children and the needs of young children. All of that cuts across policy and what organisations need to do. It is about making sure that is more inclusive for any parent, any partner, and for lone parents and then making it more attractive. The biggest challenge organisations have is that they might have incredible policies but they struggle to encourage men and women to avail of them equally. In our research, we still see men saying that if they avail of a form of family leave it could impact on their career. We need to change that through senior leaders acting as role models and companies encouraging men and women equally to avail of family support systems.