Mr. Gerry Light:

Just to follow on from the Deputy's comments and knowing her previous life and my previous life as a trade union official for many years along with my two colleagues here, and my time in the Low Pay Commission, the default position of employers throughout the years, whether for the introduction of maternity leave, holiday or miscellaneous legislation, is always that this would put them out of business, have an adverse effect and be counter-productive for employees. In all of those cases, along with the smoking ban legislation that the Deputy cited, in which we were very heavily involved with Mandate, none of that materialised. That is not to say you do not sit down and reasonably engage with employers, whether it is at a sectoral, multinational or indeed a small local enterprise level. You must listen to their case but it must be a credible one to be able to sustain an argument that low pay is essential. Low pay is never essential. I go back to the point I made earlier on. Real questions have to be asked and that is why I do not believe the concept that any job is better than no job. A job must offer employees more than earnings; it must offer them dignity at work as well. Earnings are one of those aspects. If an employee feels they are undervalued, as was said in the minority report and in the commission's submission, that is a key aspect of productivity and somebody's enjoyment of life.

Certainly one must listen to those arguments but also interrogate them.