Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

We have covered a wide range of topics. It is a very complex issue. The range of topics we covered has reflected that complexity. I do not envy the staff having to write up the Official Report of this afterwards. We have looked at individual practice issues, broader general Tusla issues and the wider social issues that are the foundation and the basics.

I will pull it into that middle ground but, first, I will comment on privatisation. I completely agree with what is written about privatisation. Empowering People in Care, EPIC, have been very clear in advertising and advocating that it is not just about foster care, it is about residential care. Six thousand euro is cheap for a placement. When I was a social worker I signed off on much more than €6,000. A placement for €6,000 would make my principal social worker smile. It is very cheap.

It is important to differentiate between the foster carers who are with a private agency, who are just as dedicated and committed and provide the same quality of service, from the private foster care company that exists to make profit. The marginal cost to Tusla of private foster care placements is increased to three or four times the cost. It is a greater drain on resources, especially the most precious resource, that is, time.

That creates the problem Ms McGuirk was talking about wherein social workers, because they are losing time, cannot put the time into recruitment, the report, training or supervision. One ultimately ends up with a weaker service and a greater reliance on the private agencies.

Essentially, there are private agencies that are weakening Tusla while at the same time strengthening their ability to make profit. I am sorry but that is the behaviour of a parasite. I have a significant issue with agencies that look at the misery of care we have reflected and see profit.

The issue of the first placement, as raised by Ms Bairéad, is a huge one. This is one that we are not necessarily grappling with from a Tusla perspective. So many times, that first placement is chaos. It is 4.55 p.m. on a Friday and it is just for the weekend but the next thing we know, the kid is there six years later without a care plan. If they are lucky, maybe it is the first of six placements in six weeks. When thinking about that first placement, we need to challenge Tusla practice on that.

With regard to the mental health services, I strongly believe we need in-house therapeutic supports for Tusla. CAMHS and the likes are totally overloaded. If we say children in care should have priority, then we need bespoke, in-house therapeutic services for them reflect the need for priority and the complex dramatic issues we have been talking about.

I have spoken with the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, about the need for in-house, therapeutic services. He is probably bored with me talking about it but I feel he understands this and is doing his best to implement it. One of the things I would like to see from this, and from the report, which is our responsibility as members of the committee, is to give the Minister levers to pull. I believe the Minister understands the crisis he faces, and we need to give him solutions and levers he can pull. The working group is a very positive part of that. I would like to dig more into that but I probably should have read the document beforehand. I may come back to the witnesses afterwards on that. That is a very important one.

I have some questions for the Irish Association of Social Workers and the Irish Foster Care Association, IFCA, on the issue of the demographics. We have spoken about demographic change impacting on recruitment. What does Tusla need to do differently? What is it doing wrong? How do we address this? How do we, as a State, and Tusla, as the agency, respond to the shifting demographics?

The other issue is the kinship care. Dr. O'Brien said it is about 30% here. In Northern Ireland, it is the opposite - it is 70%. In some in some health and social care areas, trust areas or whatever they call them in the Six Counties, they are doing significantly better. What are we doing differently? What are we doing wrong and how can we improve that? Has the Signs of Safety programme impacted on that? We can argue another day about the practice but in theory, the Signs of Safety programme is supposed to pull in everyone. Surely that Signs of Safety planning meeting can be a recruitment for the kinship care. If that is not happening, why is that not happening? Is it a fundamental problem with Signs of Safety that we need to talk about? We could be here for hours on that alone.

With regard to private family placements, guardianship payments are incredibly hard to get. Again, we could get really stuck in on the private family placements, which are effectively outsourced foster placements. We are just not giving the supports to these.

I will stick with those two questions for the minute. We have a Minister who gets it and who gets that there is a crisis. He wants to do something. It would be really positive if this committee, through its report and through the witnesses' organisations, could give the Minister very practical things he could do next. The committee will be writing a report and putting recommendations. What are the things the witnesses would like to see, in black and white, that should be achievable? There is an equality crisis, yes, but I am not sure that we can fix the equality crisis into-----