Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance) | Oireachtas source

The cost-of-living crisis is the big issue facing us all. IBEC has referred to some businesses that are in trouble and has stated that without support, they could go to the wall. Dr. McDonnell from the Nevin Economic Research Institute is talking about the need for targeted measures for those who are most adversely impacted by the cost-of-living crisis. I think we should always refer to the cost-of-living and housing crisis, frankly, because the two crises are running directly in parallel and are dire in both cases.

First, is it fair comment to state there are winners and losers in this situation? I seek the witnesses' opinion on that. We just have had the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and the ESRI before the committee and among other things, they reported on how corporate tax revenues - even I was stunned by this and I am aware of how profits have gone up in the corporate sector - have trebled over the past decade. I think it was IFAC that projected that corporate tax receipts for this year could be €20 billion. Therefore, somebody is making money. It is obviously not the IBEC members who are saying they could go to the wall but obviously somebody is making money out of all of this. We certainly know the energy companies are making a lot of money at the moment and some big corporations are making a lot of money. I suspect the pharmaceutical industry is making a lot of money. Some of those who are involved in property speculation and so on have to be making a lot of money. Is it fair to say there are some big winners out of all of this and then there are many people who are losers? How then do we address that? I do not think we should be giving hand-outs to super-profitable companies, for example, or to super-wealthy people. They do not need them and are potentially benefiting from the current situation. Equally, when we get onto the issue of targeting support, to use the much-used phrase and to which Dr. McDonnell and the Nevin Economic Research Institute have referred, where is the threshold? People are a little reluctant to say this. I asked IFAC this question. Where do we begin and end with targeting?

I ask because sometimes it comes across as saying, "Well, we will help the absolute poorest", and we absolutely have to. It is vitally important that people who are already poor are not further impoverished or that more people are not driven into poverty. There is also a whole range of people - working people - who are taking a very severe hit. They may not be quite driven into poverty but they are seriously struggling. It is completely unjust if one takes as a reasonable estimate that they could be down €3,000, €4,000 or €5,000, in terms of the real value of their income, so they need help. Where is the threshold for targeted measures? I am interested in hearing how that can be done because, as policymakers, those are the decisions we have to make and sometimes the economists are a little bit reluctant. They say, "That is up to you guys". Those are the decisions we have to make. Should we be talking about redirecting or redistributing from the winners to the people who are losing in all of this? In broad terms, is that not the way to address the current crisis? If energy companies make super profits through nothing particular that they have done, some of those profits should be redirected to protecting those who are suffering as a result of this crisis, whether it is small business, working people, pensioners or whatever. I would like to hear the comments of the witnesses on that matter.