Mr. Jonathan Powell:

The Good Friday Agreement is nebulous on the border poll. It will be very controversial when it comes to time for the Northern Ireland Secretary to make a decision. A Secretary resisting a border poll in light of repeated opinion polls that show a majority in favour of a united Ireland would be on very tricky ground legally, politically and in every other way. This is why I see it as interacting with Scotland and the referendum there. It does not interact legally but politically. If "No" is said to one and "Yes" is said to the other or vice versait will be a real problem.

With regard to the Labour Party, it is possible to be in favour of the union yet say it is up to the people in Northern Ireland to decide on their future. That is not incompatible. I would favour Scotland remaining in a union with the United Kingdom but in the end it is up to the people of Scotland to decide. This is the point of consent. I think the same about Northern Ireland. I would like Northern Ireland to remain in the United Kingdom but it is up to the people of Northern Ireland. I do not think there is quite the stark line. What this all resulted from, as committee members know, is a Tory attack on the Labour Party trying to make it nervous. It is all about terminology rather than anything else. It must be for the people of Northern Ireland to decide their future and not anyone else. This is clear from the Good Friday Agreement.

I must admit I have not given much thought to a citizens' assembly. I said earlier that a failure to debate and discuss what a united Ireland might mean in practice would be quite dangerous. The example of Brexit is quite salient. If we had had a proper debate about what sort of Brexit we were speaking about and if people had realised what was happening there would have been very different numbers in the vote. We see the opinion polls in Britain now. They show very clearly that the majority of people think Brexit has been a failure. This is a danger in Northern Ireland. If there is a border poll without saying what will happen afterwards it would be dangerous. I do not know whether a citizens' assembly would be the right way to do it. It would only work if it were inclusive. As we have been saying, inclusivity works both ways. Everyone needs to be at the table if there is to be a proper discussion. It is worth discussing. There might be some trouble persuading unionists to participate in a citizens' assembly on this at present but perhaps at some stage it would be possible.